I'm having a love affair with GUMSHOE

[Rogue Agent]

The first is: This game falls apart if you fail a roll and don't get a clue you need to solve the mystery.

The problem is that this is a very specific iteration of the general problem "cannot follow clue". The "cannot follow clue" problem can be the result of several things:

(1) They mechanically fail to find the clue
(2) They don't look for the clue
(3) They don't look for the clue in the right place
(4) They don't look for the clue in the right way
(5) They ignore the clue
(6) They misinterpret the clue
(7) They can't solve the clue

GUMSHOE and its designers claim, repeatedly, to solve the entire "cannot solve clue" problem by fixing #1.

It doesn't. The game is a failure at its own sales pitch.

This is only a minor problem, of course, unless you're beguiled by their sales pitch and design your adventures accordingly (and in accord with the advice given in the rulebooks).

More generally, the things you need to do in your scenario design to fix the other aspects of the "cannot solve clue" problem will also solve #1. Which just renders the entire "auto-find clue" mechanic into redundant complexity.

A properly constructed Gumshoe scenario is more of a sandbox than most traditional RPG play.

Agreed. A properly constructed GUMSHOE scenario doesn't follow the advice given in Esoterrorists or Robin D. Laws' See Page XX columns.

So as you can see, railroading is not an inherent property of the system whatsoever.

I don't recall saying that it was.

 

[Anselyn]

GUMSHOE and its designers claim, repeatedly, to solve the entire "cannot solve clue" problem by fixing #1.

It doesn't. The game is a failure at its own sales pitch.

That's an unfair representation of their position. They say that it fixes the problem of not finding the clue so that the players can get on with solving the mystery. In fact, I'm not sure what you think "solve clue" means; you use clues to solve the bigger puzzle of the story.

Your helpful list

(1) They mechanically fail to find the clue
(2) They don't look for the clue
(3) They don't look for the clue in the right place
(4) They don't look for the clue in the right way
(5) They ignore the clue
(6) They misinterpret the clue
(7) They can't solve the clue

does show how players can fail to act on data they have been given but at least then the problem is with the players not with the system.

Also, if the players are having a problem with (4) then I'd think that the ref is being unhelpful if this means some hoop-jumping interpretatin of saying the right thing is required. After all, you don't need to be a martial artist to get to roll to hit in D&D.

 

[Anselyn]

Agreed. A properly constructed GUMSHOE scenario doesn't follow the advice given in Esoterrorists or Robin D. Laws' See Page XX columns.

Well, if we only played games that got everything right in their first iteration who'd be playing RPGs at all?

 

[Plane Sailing]

The Armitage Files (for ToC) is a giant sandbox where not even the Keeper knows what the real solution to the mystery is beforehand. It's as opposite from a railroad as you can get.

That sounds like an incredibly bold and interesting adventure premise - I might have to get it to see what they did with it!

 

[Plane Sailing]

The whole conversation reminds me a little of OD&D investigation! There were no skills that codified randomness, so the players asked questions about their environment and were given the answers. If you searched for a secret door in the bedroom, and there was one, you found it.

I find myself increasingly coming round to the immersive ness that generated.

Anyhow, some interesting discussion here.

Thanks

 

[Anselyn]

That sounds like an incredibly bold and interesting adventure premise - I might have to get it to see what they did with it!

The Armitage Files also builds on the CoC heritage of nice handouts. So the investigation can build from how the players interpret and act on the initial clues.

e.g.

Sadly, can't find a bigger image!

 

[Anselyn]

Redacted!

 

[pauljathome]

Even if core clues are automatic, there's still an incentive to invest in Search beyond 1 rank because not all clues are core clues. Higher Search skill would still be used for non-core clues, for non-clue situations, and could be used for revealing more information, in addition to the bare minimum "gimmee" of the core clues.


That's the approach I would take for core clues.


This, too.

Gumshoe works because it has totally different mechanics for investigative abilities and other abilities.

If I were to run a Gumshoe like campaign in D&D I'd just drop some skills (search, sense motive, detective in some D20 variants) and replace them with another mechanic (simplest would be feats).

So, a character with the search feat automatically succeeds and gets one "cool" extra per session (a spend). A character with two levels of the feat gets too extras per session (2 spends).

 

[pauljathome]

Agreed. A properly constructed GUMSHOE scenario doesn't follow the advice given in Esoterrorists or Robin D. Laws' See Page XX columns.

.

Uh, as somebody who has played many gumshoe games with Robin Laws (check the playtest credits if you don't believe me) I have to vehemently disagree with this assertion.

Robin most definitely knows how to construct GUMSHOE scenarios.

You don't like this game and that is fine. There are parts of the game that I also dislike and it is very much NOT intended for everybody. But I think that you're letting your dislike very strongly color your perception of what the game actually IS.

 

[Alzrius]

Uh, as somebody who has played many gumshoe games with Robin Laws (check the playtest credits if you don't believe me) I have to vehemently disagree with this assertion.

Robin most definitely knows how to construct GUMSHOE scenarios.

You don't like this game and that is fine. There are parts of the game that I also dislike and it is very much NOT intended for everybody. But I think that you're letting your dislike very strongly color your perception of what the game actually IS.

Paul, as someone who playtested the GUMSHOE system, what do you think of this article's critique of the system as basically giving you a "breadcrumb trail" to follow, rather than allowing you to come to the conclusion from multiple paths?