I'm having a love affair with GUMSHOE

Again, guys, careful; someone disliking aspects of a game (and being able to say why) does not call for personal attacks.

I'll be the first to say that running it took an adjustment for me. My first Esoterrorists game sucked. It wasn't until I took the leap with Ashen Stars that I realized how good it can be. And it still throws me for a loop now and then. You should have seen the look on my face in my first Night's Black Agents game when my bad guy was getting away by helicopter. [MENTION=3448]Cerebral Paladin[/MENTION] smiled, said "I've saved all my preparedness skill for just this moment..." and blew the guy out of the sky with a rocket propelled grenade he successfully rolled for (and explained in a quick flashback). I think the other players cheered.
 

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I'll be the first to say that running it took an adjustment for me. My first Esoterrorists game sucked. It wasn't until I took the leap with Ashen Stars that I realized how good it can be. And it still throws me for a loop now and then. You should have seen the look on my face in my first Night's Black Agents game when my bad guy was getting away by helicopter. [MENTION=3448]Cerebral Paladin[/MENTION] smiled, said "I've saved all my preparedness skill for just this moment..." and blew the guy out of the sky with a rocket propelled grenade he successfully rolled for (and explained in a quick flashback). I think the other players cheered.

so what was the problem in the first game or so? Was it something unique to the session or the Esoterrorists game?
 

so what was the problem in the first game or so? Was it something unique to the session or the Esoterrorists game?

A combination of things.

- Flawed premise. I had a great hook, a reasonable set of clues for development, and I never crafted a really compelling climax.

- Flawed characters. They were mechanically fine, but I think their interactions were sort of boring. (The players liked them, I was underwhelmed.)

- A distracted player. One of the players was being goofy. Eh, it happens.

- Not enough advice in how to run it. Those few pages in the original Esoterrorists just weren't enough.

- I didn't trust my clue chain. I was really intimidated by the concept of building a mystery. Part of that was feeling like I had to have everything written down ahead of time (which is nonsense), part of it was not remembering which investigative abilities would find what clues, part of it was the aforementioned half-assed climax.

- I didn't have a feel for how General Ability dice pools worked, or how to refresh them. As a result, I didn't understand how far the PCs could be pushed to their limits. I went soft on them as a result... I didn't challenge them enough.

I'm being overly hard on myself. The players had fun, and I had fun, but I left the game feeling that it needed some improvements before it could really sing. I then converted the scenario over to Dread and ran it three more times, and it didn't really work there, either. That suggests to me that my scenario/character design wasn't great. I can't blame that on the game rules.

I'm much more comfortable now with the clue chain, because I stopped worrying. I know who did what, and how. Then it's up to the PCs to ask questions. If they think of checking for a clue that would obviously be there but which I didn't consider, I just extemporize. It works perfectly.

Example: in the first game of my Ashen Stars mystery "Dangerous Bedfellows," the PCs are trying to track the path of the murder victim through the space station before he got killed. Are there cameras? There are! The PCs use a skill to pull up the data feed, and I explain that the victim has a Personal Bluffer which fuzzes out surveillance devices. One of the players says "So if he has a zone of interference around him, we can follow his path by watching the video feeds and seeing which one blurs out when." Completely brilliant, completely logical, and I gave them the information they were looking for.
 

The combat system is very abstract and often very safe for participants in what should be dangerous situations. Health levels are very high relative to weapon damages.
This is at odds with my experience. It's an unusual fight when one PC doesn't drop to 0 health or below. I find fighting in the later Gumshoe games to be fast, deadly and cinematic -- a lot like Savage Worlds in that regard. Can you give an example? I may be doing something different than you, and I'm curious what.
 

An straight question for @Rogue Agent then:
Have you played a complete GUMSHOE game?

I ran a session of Esoterrorists.

In doing so, I ignored the questionable adventure design advice and designed the scenario the way I normally do (and which later GUMSHOE games apparently advise): Lots of redundant clues. Under those conditions, I found that the "auto-find clue (if you use the right ability)" mechanic had no real impact on how the scenario played out.

Mechanically, I thought the game was basically sound and fairly interesting. The lack of guidelines on how much activity the PCs could manage between pool refreshes made things a little rocky at times. That can be adjusted for, but will ultimately always be a significant limitation in how scenarios are structured (short of the GM just handwaving it).

The conflicting advice over multiple supplements over how point buys should be handled was also problematic: Do you let the players ask if there are point buys? Do you force them to spend the points to find out if there even is a point buy? Do you tell them there are point buys available? If so, do you tell them what it is they're buying before they buy it? Depending on where you look in the rulebooks and supplements, all of these are given as rules and/or guidelines. And all of them are problematic from a design standpoint, IMO: Either you're leading the players around by the nose, or you're asking them to place blind bids on brown paper bags without any idea how many bags they're going to be bidding on before their pool of points refreshes.

The limitations on scenario design (which appear to become more severe as you move towards a non-linear design), the pointless division between investigation and non-investigation skills (if you use a non-linear design with redundant clues), and the unfinished design of the point buys ultimately made me decide that GUMSHOE wasn't worth coming back to.
 

The conflicting advice over multiple supplements over how point buys should be handled was also problematic: Do you let the players ask if there are point buys? Do you force them to spend the points to find out if there even is a point buy? Do you tell them there are point buys available? If so, do you tell them what it is they're buying before they buy it?

This has been drastically improved. Ken Hite has talked a little bit about it in a podcast, where he explained that a player wanting to spend an investigative point is saying "I want something awesome." It's then the GM's job to make something awesome happen. Sometimes the player will say what they're hoping for, and sometimes the GM can offer it, but it just makes the game that much cooler.

Examples, all in Night's Black Agents that I've run:
- spending a traffic analysis point to rig some of Krakow's traffic lights so that everyone is shunted away from the PCs' car chase.
- Spending a flirting point to get a cartel bigwig to be obsessed with you, and then walking away (and leaving him panting) so that he's easy picking for your later scam.
- Spending an Accounting point to hack into a mark's accounts and tweak his offshore bank account, just in time to make him look very guilty to his bosses.
- Spending a Notice point to notice that the cartel head's bodyguards and arm candy are all blinking at the exact same time he is.
- Spending a reassurance point to convince the Russian mobster that yeah, you're his old partner's little brother, and you Do need a freelance job.

And so forth -- you get the idea.

I'm looking forward to the upcoming 2nd edition of Esoterrorists to see how much the game has improved.
 
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Defining them firmly as a "narrative cool request" action point system sounds pretty solid.

I should say that I'm looking forward to Ashen Stars based on this thread. I've been collecting GUMSHOE stuff casually despite my reservations with the system because the source material is so consistently great.
 

This is at odds with my experience. It's an unusual fight when one PC doesn't drop to 0 health or below. I find fighting in the later Gumshoe games to be fast, deadly and cinematic -- a lot like Savage Worlds in that regard. Can you give an example? I may be doing something different than you, and I'm curious what.

First of all, one of my players is an EMT. When he read the justifications for the non-lethality of gunfire on page 62, he objected rather strenuously. including pointing out that even with 21st century medicine and rapid ambulance response, gun shot victims die over 30% of the time and twice that when the gun shot was intentional. Now imagine it's the 1930s and no ambulance is coming.

After the poor attempt to justify guns being poor at killing people, there actually are good rules for making firearms more appropriate on page 62.

As for myself, I dislike describing hits with deadly weapons as not actually being hits. If you have 12 health and die at -12 you functionally can take 24 points of damage and still live (0 counts). Now with a lot of things that are deadly only doing 1d6+1 (or a few more with modifiers), you can reliably take the best shot possible with a .45 and not even flinch. So you have to narrate it away as "a near miss" or "a graze" when it's actually the best possible hit (roll a 6 to hit and a 6 for damage).

Even in purist mode, if someone threatens you with a gun, you can reliably ignore the immediate danger of being shot and wrestle the gun away from the person. This is a lot like modern action movies where you can always kick the gun out of someone's hand or that simply by changing direction, gun shots will always miss you or only ever do superficial injuries.

I've read a lot of mysteries and while firearms are not the most prevalent in Lovecraft's work, it's pretty much a standard for the genre that guns kill people and pulling them out is a major, major escalation. People stop. They put up their hands. They beg or bargain. They dive.

Occasionally they'll wrestle with the person, but if the gun goes off and hits someone, it's usually a serious part of the plot. Under the normal rules (even purist) someone pulling a gun is no big deal. You can take 2 or 3 bullets without having to worry. And even then you'll be only mildly bruised and scraped.

So we cap health at 4 and make the cost of health beyond 1 costs 2 points except for soldiers, athletes and any occupation where physical conditioning would be part of the occupation. For each point you hit by, you get +1 damage and if firearms take you to negative, you immediately take 6 additional damage and become seriously wounded or dead. Similarly for anything else that we might consider lethal like a knife or a heavy candelabra or a rock you get +1 damage per point you hit by.

The other way we handled it once was to say everyone has 1 health and up to 11 or 14 "avoiding harm" points. When someone hits you, they multiply their damage roll by how many points they hit you by. You can then spend "avoid harm" to reduce the multiplier down to a minimum of 1 times. So if someone pulls a heavy gun and shoots you and hits you by 3, you spend 2 points of "avoid harm" and only take 1d6+1 (which on a 1-5 will make you hurt and on a 6+ will be a serious wound). If someone has no "avoid harm" and they take a 3x shot, they're likely dead or dying. It worked, but it was very swingy like Savage Worlds on gritty mode.
 
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Ah, sure, you're playing Trail of Cthulhu. I'm playing Ashen Stars and Night's Black Agents, both games that involve much more cinematic violence. I completely see a rationale in ToC for capping health at 4 or 6, somewhere around there.

The rule that always drops PCs in my games is when an unarmed PC rushes a gunman; according to the rules the gunman auto-hits and does x3 damage. It's brutal but fun to watch. One thing that does tweak my "suspension of disbelief" meter is how quickly the medic skill works. It's not a big enough problem to change, though, it just feels a bit weird (or quite possibly I'm handling it wrong).
 

Interestingly, in Ashen Stars shooting someone with a lethal weapon is a pretty big no-no unless you've got exceptionally good reason (since it can damage your troubleshooter reputation and thus your ability to obtain desirable future contracts) - so most weapons default to a stun setting.
 

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