I'm not running away, I'm attacking in another direction...

[Uller]

Help me understand how fleeing from combat works...both 3.0 and 3.5 rules welcome (the withdraw action seems like it might sooth things out a bit).

Okay...you have character A and B with identical move rates in adjacent squares and each with a 5' reach melee weapon.

Character B decides he's had enough and wants out of the fight. A is going to chase him and attempt to grapple him (tackle really) to prevent him from getting away. Assume that the terrain is open enough that one can move fairly easily, but there are enough obstacles that B can prevent A from charging him.

So...B can:

1) Run
2) Withdraw (or in 3.0 he can do a up to a double move).

What can A do to attempt to prevent B from getting away and position himself so he can continue get AoOs?

 

[James McMurray]

A can trip, grapple, bull rush B into a wall, throw a tanglefoot bag, or basically anything else that will stop or slow movement.

Also, unless you want humans to never be able to outrun one another, once someone has taken the run action with the intent to flee a battle you should probably switch to some other method of determining how the chase works out. The DMG has some guidelines on this I believe.

 

[BeauNiddle]

Help me understand how fleeing from combat works...both 3.0 and 3.5 rules welcome (the withdraw action seems like it might sooth things out a bit).

Okay...you have character A and B with identical move rates in adjacent squares and each with a 5' reach melee weapon.

Character B decides he's had enough and wants out of the fight. A is going to chase him and attempt to grapple him (tackle really) to prevent him from getting away. Assume that the terrain is open enough that one can move fairly easily, but there are enough obstacles that B can prevent A from charging him.

So...B can:

1) Run
2) Withdraw (or in 3.0 he can do a up to a double move).

What can A do to attempt to prevent B from getting away and position himself so he can continue get AoOs?

Nothing

All he can do is double move / run after B which will merely put him adjacent next round. If he double moves then B will withdraw and thus avoid an AoO, if he runs he doesn't threaten (IIRC) and so no AoO again.

This is why either having a straight line to charge is such an important thing for stopping chases.

For general foot chases most people start doing tumble / balance / jump checks to get round random obstacles to differentiate the combatants (or bribe onlookers to get involved as my PCs have done in the past)

 

[Uller]

Nothing

All he can do is double move / run after B which will merely put him adjacent next round. If he double moves then B will withdraw and thus avoid an AoO, if he runs he doesn't threaten (IIRC) and so no AoO again.

Okay...looking at the rules again (3.0 in this case)...You CAN make an AoO after a run. Flat-footed characters lose their dex bonus to AC and can't make AoOs. A Run is a Full Round Action. You lose your dex bonus to AC (I presume only during your turn...but it could be argued that it is until your next turn I guess) but it says nothing about AoOs.

So...if character B runs, A gets an AoO. Then A runs next to B. B runs again and A gets another AoO...okay, that works for me...With B losing its dex bonus, that makes it a little easier to try to grapple or trip to prevent it from getting away.

Now for the double move. If B double moves, what is A to do? One thing I guess is that A could run and get around B. This could at least corral B a little by making him move in a different direction. However, B could still possibly move such that A can't charge so it becomes impossible for A to catch him...but maybe this is the rare case.

It seems to me that the rules fall down here. If two characters have the same speed, then disengagement should always be difficult. Maybe the 3.5 withdraw action should only allow you to move at your speed, not twice speed. That way, a pursuer can move up and attack again. So if you're going to run away, you probably should use a run action...if you're just disengaging, then it should be difficult to move out of attack range AND avoid an AoO without help unless your foe is considerably slower than you are...

That's how I see it anyway...

 

[James McMurray]

If you can't charge due to obtacles, you can't run, because you have to run in a straight line.

 

[Uller]

If you can't charge due to obtacles, you can't run, because you have to run in a straight line.

But you can still do a double move, thus placing yourself out of range of an attack without provoking an attack of opportunity. I really think the answer here is to make the withdraw action allow moving only up to your speed, not twice your speed. It allows you to move out of combat without provoking an AoO, but gives your foe a chance to re-engage if he choses and can move at least as fast as you can (or charge if you neglect to place an obstacle between you and your foe).

Back in 2e (I don't remember if this was an official rule or a house rule) we always allowed a "free attack" against anyone who tried to move out of combat. 5' steps and withdraw are a nice way to allow characters to disengage, but allowing the double move makes it a little too easy to disengage without giving your foe a chance to stop you. That's my opinion, anyway.

 

[Grayhawk]

Maybe the 3.5 withdraw action should only allow you to move at your speed, not twice speed...

This has been a houserule of mine for some time now, as I think it should cost you some of your move to disengage in a way that doesn't provoke an AoO.

(Somewhat OT, I've also added a houserule that lets you stand up from prone defensively, as a full round action that doesn't provoke an AoO. In play, I've found that both of these variants add to the characters' tactical options.

I also feel that they both present balanced alternatives, as I've seen my players torn between [moving twice their speed plus AoO] and [moving their speed minus AoO], as well as being torn between [standing up as an MEA plus AoO] and [standing up as a full round action minus AoO].)

 

[kwiqsilver]

...but allowing the double move makes it a little too easy to disengage without giving your foe a chance to stop you.

Not really. Where are you going to go? If you guys have the same movement rate all you're doing by withdrawing is postponing and repositioning the fight, not escaping it.
And eventually you'll probably get to an area open enough that he can charge.
I think withdrawl is only useful if your opponent has other enemies to deal with, you can get through a door or some other safe spot, or you can hide around a corner.
Of course if you have fast healing or regeneration (or he's suffering wounding damage) then time is on your side.

 

[reiella]

Help me understand how fleeing from combat works...both 3.0 and 3.5 rules welcome (the withdraw action seems like it might sooth things out a bit).

Okay...you have character A and B with identical move rates in adjacent squares and each with a 5' reach melee weapon.

Character B decides he's had enough and wants out of the fight. A is going to chase him and attempt to grapple him (tackle really) to prevent him from getting away. Assume that the terrain is open enough that one can move fairly easily, but there are enough obstacles that B can prevent A from charging him.

So...B can:

1) Run
2) Withdraw (or in 3.0 he can do a up to a double move).

What can A do to attempt to prevent B from getting away and position himself so he can continue get AoOs?

3.5 CW
Ranged Pin feat.

It'll stop them long enough for you catch up and club em.

 

[Jhulae]

So...B can:

1) Run
2) Withdraw (or in 3.0 he can do a up to a double move).

What can A do to attempt to prevent B from getting away. . .

'A' can move 30' a round and shoot B in the back with arrows until he's dead.

Or, 'A' can switch to a reach weapon and while 'B' won't draw an attack of opportunity from moving out of the square right next to 'A', he will when he moves through the range of the reach weapon. (Withdraw action allows you to basically ignore the 1st AoO you'd get from your enemy, usually when you're right next to him.)