D&D 4E I'm really concerned about 4E

[Imaro]

Worldbuilding, again, is not a rule-dependent process. End of story. I notice you have stopped talking about worldbuilding here, so I assume you've given up that line of argument.

Yeah, I gotta throw in with the disagree crowd on this one. I play a multitude of roleplaying games and the rules usually(unless it's a generic system, and even then it's not always the case) have a definite effect upon the world. IMHO, combat, races, magic, classes, equipment, the planes, etc. all set the tone of the world by what is and isn't included.

 

[Psionaura]

This Is All So Funny

I've been DMing D&D since the 70's and have only ever used the three core books from the very beginning. I've updated those books as the new editions have emerged and I've never purchased a single Dungeon or Dragon magazine, though I have looked at all the books as they come out and scan through the mags occasionally.

I have never allowed anything from any source other than the core books and I can promise everyone here that all of my many, many players (including myself) have had just as much fun playing D&D as anyone who has purchased and used every single product ever released.

Nothing else has ever been NEEDED to make the game more fun. If you believe that's not true then logic says the more books you use the more fun you'll have and whomever is buying/using the most books is having the most fun.

I expect I will buy the minimal 4e core books needed to run the game and already know we will have just as much fun as anyone who subscribes to the DI and buys every product released afterward for years to come.

 

[Hussar]

Consider football: it is possible to add or subtract certain non-essential rules, like "Instant Replay". Some like it, some don't, but nobody can seriously claim that you're not really playing football if it's in or it's out. However, what if they changed it to where you only need to make 2 yards for a 1st down? Or they decreed that the Quarterback will now ride around the field in a dune buggy? Whatever the good or bad things that could be said for those rules changes, they'd leave you with something that was decidedly not football, regardless of what the NFL would try to call it.

Umm, you realize there are already several versions of football out there? Canadian Football just to name one, uses a different field, 3 downs and a number of other changes. Is it still football?

Heck, Bloodbowl is what I wish football really was.

 

[Cadfan]

I agree that world building isn't rules independent. For example, if the rules don't include aerial combat, your planned campaign based around the pcs as dragon riding knights jousting in the skies will not be very easy to create.

That being said, anyone who thinks that "points of light" is going to be some kind of straitjacket is just being ridiculous. I cannot even dream up a scenario under which that will be the case.

 

[DonTadow]

Yeah, I gotta throw in with the disagree crowd on this one. I play a multitude of roleplaying games and the rules usually(unless it's a generic system, and even then it's not always the case) have a definite effect upon the world. IMHO, combat, races, magic, classes, equipment, the planes, etc. all set the tone of the world by what is and isn't included.

Worldbuilding is definitely governed by the rules associated with the game. Its the reason why most game manuals, no matter the system, will include a worldbuilding part in its dm guide (if it is not a set world.

In d and d, the system seems to illustrate that by having associated companion books with every setting they release. The rules dictate the world and the world dictate the rules

 

[Shortman McLeod]

Umm, you realize there are already several versions of football out there? Canadian Football just to name one, uses a different field, 3 downs and a number of other changes. Is it still football?

Well, it's still football, but it isn't NFL football, which is what I think his analogy meant. Flip it around: if Canadian football added a fourth down and played on a smaller (NFL-size) field, would it still be Canadian football?

At any rate, I think we're in danger of getting into a discussion of the analogy rather than using the analogy to enhance our discussion of the topic, which is D&D.

 

[Simia Saturnalia]

Worldbuilding is definitely governed by the rules associated with the game. Its the reason why most game manuals, no matter the system, will include a worldbuilding part in its dm guide (if it is not a set world.

In d and d, the system seems to illustrate that by having associated companion books with every setting they release. The rules dictate the world and the world dictate the rules

I prefer 'inform', but yes. It's a two-way street.

To whit, I've never built a 1e world with sorcerers, nor a 3e world where dwarven clerics are oathbound to remain in their Halls (how else do you justify them being NPC only?).

 

[Maggan]

Well, what do you think about the football scenario I outlined? Would the quarterback in a dune buggy still be football, or would it not?

This talk about a "quarterback" ... confuses me. There's no quarterback in football.

/M

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Well, it's still football, but it isn't NFL football, which is what I think his analogy meant. Flip it around: if Canadian football added a fourth down and played on a smaller (NFL-size) field, would it still be Canadian football?

Well, no, because Canadian football is defined by its rules. However, as has been demonstrated umpteen times on these boards, D&D isn't.

 

[Xyl]

As for the planes, I think the reason for the change is to allow for planar adventures at lower levels. I proposed that the Feywild is for low-level planar adventures, the Shadowfell, for medium-level adventures, and the Astral Sea for high-level adventures.

This is contradicted by a recent blog entry (Gleemax is down or I'd find it) to the effect that all planar monsters are now high-level, and that a planar gate opening is really scary because it means epic-level monsters will pour out. It seems pretty clear the planes are reserved for level 20+ adventures; they're just trying to make them more interesting places for those adventures.