D&D 4E I'm really concerned about 4E

[Odhanan]

I just got to get it out of my chest.

I've been sort of concerned when the announcement was made. Not about the rules change themselves, they seem fine enough, and if that's going towards a simplification of the game as a whole, I'm all for it, but about the DI, Dragon, Dungeon, all that jazz.

I sort of became mildly disinterested in the whole thing after a while. Sort of like "alright, discussing about stuff we won't know anything about until May... been there, done that". Let's get the books already.

And then, during the last few days, I've read a lot here and on the WotC boards. I read about paying for virtual minis on the virtual tabletop. Of "everything's core". Of "a PH, DMG and MM a year"... and I'm starting to get really worried.

I love this game.

I feel like it could turn into something I wouldn't recognize at all. I can't help but think about Magic: The Gathering's marketing techniques, and I feel like all these people crying about how "they make D&D more like MMOs" (which I find produces to complete reverse effect to what's initially intended - it makes the idea of competing with MMOs a given in D&D culture instead of repelling it, but that's not the point of the post).

I'm tired of teasers. I want some facts. When I get some facts, I get the first online articles of Dragon. I still feel just as concerned as before. I'm worried. I'm not talking about the rules, again. I'm talking about all that surrounds it (marketing, DI, virtual tabletop). I'm really uneasy about all that stuff. It feels like even if I dig the new core books, I won't be able to keep up with all the changes around them because well... I won't want to, to tell you the truth.

 

[JVisgaitis]

It feels like even if I dig the new core books, I won't be able to keep up with all the changes around them because well... I won't want to, to tell you the truth.

Then don't buy them. Just because they are saying that they want to release a lot more books as core doesn't obligate you to buy them. That goes doubly so for the digital miniatures and everything else. I don't understand why people get so uptight about stuff like this. WotC is a business. They are trying to make money. If you don't like their practices or the Digital Initiative, don't subscribe to them! Buy the initial 3 core rulebooks and move on and be happy with life.

 

[Odhanan]

Okay. I'm going to try to explain.

I want to buy everything there's to buy about this game. I love the game. I want to keep up with it. I want to keep being interested in everything that goes with it.

My problem isn't that I don't want to hurt my wallet or whatever. I'm not discussing either that WotC is a business, that they're making money blablabla. I don't deny any of that. But that has strictly NOTHING to do with my concerns.

I have concerns for MY relationship with D&D, the game I love, and everything that surrounds it. I would love for WotC to just charm me into opening my wallet for them. Please, rape my wallet! See? But that's not happening. THAT's what is worrying me.

Let me spell it again loud and clear: this has nothing to do whatsoever with money. It has everything to do with my love of the game.

I hope it's clearer. Cheers,
Benoist.

 

[A'koss]

As far as the DI, virtual tabletop offerings go - I really don't expect it to be all that compelling right out of the gate. It's going to take time for them to find their feet, hammer out all the little problems and build a robust offering.

It's still 6 months+ away so there's little point in getting worked up over it now. Expect a much splashier marketing/info push closer to the release date.

 

[MojoGM]

I see where you're coming from, and from many of the posts I see on here you are not alone.

Basically it comes down to this: The game you love is moving into the 21st (22nd?) Century. And that (in my opinion) is a good thing.

You don't NEED to buy the virtual minis (I won't, as I am not playing online), and you won't be missing a lot if you don't subscribe to the online service.

But it is there for people who do. Personally, I'm more interested in the character generator and any other electronic bells and whistles they come up with. That alone will be worth it (if it is at least as functional and useful as E-Tools is now)

The articles, adventures, etc. are all bonus stuff. Don't need it to play the game, but if you do want them they are there.

As for the multiple core books, I think I heard somewhere they would do about 3 a year. Most of us probably buy at least 3 D&D books per year, so no change there. And this may eliminate the need for another edition down the road.

So don't worry...check out the core books when they come out and see if that is the way you want to go. If not, stay with 3.5. I don't think you'll be alone if you do.

 

[Khairn]

Odhanan, I couldn't agree with you more.

In all honesty, I'm a system addict. I buy numerous systems each year and have no problem mixing and matching rules, style and flavor to suite my taste at the moment. Nothing about the new rules really strikes as a major problem or necessarily something that is really unique or revolutionary. Many of 4E's new features I've seen (and played) in other games over the years, so they are no big deal.

But the periphery components of the D&D Experience give me a reason for concern. I'm seeing nothing that really grabs me, but I am seeing a number of things that leave me cold. I was a Dragon subscriber, the FR lorekeeper for my group and an RPGA player and GM who loved Living Greyhawk and had played in the setting for over 20 years. So right there I have a problem with whats being offered. Only a couple of my players (2 out of 19) are even the slightest bit interested in 4E. The DDI is offering me nothing as I actually play face - face with players, and we only have a couple of players with lap tops. And what I've seen and heard about E-Drag and E-Dun leave me underwhelmed at best.

Like you I have disposable income and a willingness to buy good games, but it feels like WotC is either out of touch with me or not interested in retaining me as a customer.

When I first saw the "WotC firing their customer" post I chuckled and thought it was just a wee overboard. I'm no longer laughing.

 

[EricNoah]

D&D is always going to change and evolve. If it doesn't, they're just selling the same thing over and over again. There will undoubtedly be a point at which it changes so much it will be unrecognizable to those who played the earliest editions. For some, 3E was that border; d20 isn't recognizable as D&D to them any more. For you it might be 4E. It might be 5E or later for others. I think of it as a (sad?) part of growing older.

The great thing about 3E and the d20 system / OGL situation is that 3E can live on and grow forever. So I feel fortunate that I will be able to play 3E for as long as I want, and maybe go to 4E if and when I feel ready.

 

[WayneLigon]

I want to buy everything there's to buy about this game. I love the game. I want to keep up with it. I want to keep being interested in everything that goes with it.

I don't understand those statements. Why would you buy something if you think you're not going to be interested in it. I plan to buy and play 4E right now unless something happens to quell my enthusiasm, but at the same time I probably won't go with the DI; it's useless to me save for Dungeon and Dragon. At some point, I think they'll offer those seperately at some point soon, so I might wait for that time, I might not. I might try it for 2-3 months to see what the offerings are like. If I decide to later, I won't miss an issue; they'll be right there waiting for me. I don't tend to buy a lot of peripheral stuff beside the three core books then whatever happens to look interesting after that time.

Let me spell it again loud and clear: this has nothing to do whatsoever with money. It has everything to do with my love of the game.

I still don't understand what specific thing you're concerned about and how that has anything to do with how much you like D&D?

 

[DaveMage]

Here's the way I see it.

I have no problem with someone making money, but I do have a problem when design decisions are (potentially) greatly impacted by monetary concerns. Sure, there has to be some consideration, but in this case I feel it seems to go to far.

For example, they want PHB1, PHB2, and PHB3 to all be considered "core". So, in order to sell *all* those books, they are "holding out" some races or classes to be used in later volumes.

Second, as mentioned, the DI nickel-and-dime potential:

Look! Here are cool virtual minis to use with your $9.99/month DI subscription! Oh, but, sorry, if you actually want to USE these minis, well, they cost extra. Oh, and by the way, you'll have to buy them in random virtual packs. (WTF!?!?! ) Now, hopefully WotC will give up this nonsensical idea and make everything available under the DI at their monthly $9.99. However, the more I hear about this edition, the more I'm convinced that the folks in charge of the purse strings are not interested in good value for the gamer - they're interested in separating as much money from the gamer as possible.

For those of you who are going 4e, hopefully, I'm completely wrong.

 

[A'koss]

Look! Here are cool virtual minis to use with your $9.99/month DI subscription! Oh, but, sorry, if you actually want to USE these minis, well, they cost extra. Oh, and by the way, you'll have to buy them in random virtual packs. (WTF!?!?! ).

You are kidding about the virtual minis, right?