D&D 4E I'm really concerned about 4E

[Imaro]

The rules per se don't matter; the baseline does. Any rule at all can form the baseline; thus the individual rules themselve have no meaning, just that we have rules at all.

If I release D&D with, say, no classes and no spells, just collections of class abilities and talent trees hung on a base archtype, and a collection of powers and modifiers in place of spells, then we'd all still know what a person was talking about when they talked about a high power or low power game because we're all using the same ruleset. The rules themselves don't matter at all, but what does matter is the fact that we're all on the same page. The idea of 'high power' and 'low power' are neutral terms when talking about rules, because one doesn't follow from the other.

Yet the "feel" of D&D is defined by those base rules, whether it's a whole new set of rules or a tweak to rules that already exsist. Not seeing your point here, the rules still define what the game is. Answer this question then...

So if I make D&D 4e a game with only one mechanic... where you flip a coin with heads=succeeds and tails=fails...(no classes, you just describe your man, no spells you create them on the fly, etc.) is it still D&D? I would argue not to majority of players and the game would fail as representing or even being D&D to most. In fact I would daresay doing this would cause D&D to be defined by most as 3rd edition or earlier, thus we are not on the same baseline and the rules have both defined what is and isn't D&D to each individual. In other words the rules shape whether that baseline is an actually accepted baseline and what the D&D experience is suppose to, on average, be like.

 

[Nifft]

So if I make D&D 4e a game with only one mechanic... where you flip a coin with heads=succeeds and tails=fails...(no classes, you just describe your man, no spells you create them on the fly, etc.) is it still D&D?

My hat of d02 know NO limit?

Cheers, -- N

PS: If you're not familiar with the reference, flipping a coin is a very old parody of 3e.

 

[Imaro]

That's not entirely true, not if you're comparing combat power. A D&D character and a Exalted character can't play in the same game, because they use different rules. What would 12 points of D&D fire damage mean to a Exalted character? What does his +4 attack bonus mean? These have only meanings within the game.

It's a bit different with other skills: How high is the success chance for a 1st level D&D character to climb a knotted rope? How high is it for a Warhammer character? How high for an Exalted character?

Youu look at propabilities of success and damage ratio output. In Exalted, as a starting exalt, use a charm (graceful crane stance) to balance with a 100% chance on a piece of Bamboo. Can I ever do this in D&D or Warhammer at first level with a 100% chance of success?

 

[Odhanan]

So if I make D&D 4e a game with only one mechanic... where you flip a coin with heads=succeeds and tails=fails...(no classes, you just describe your man, no spells you create them on the fly, etc.) is it still D&D?

If you are going through Dungeons, killing Dragons and taking their stuff? I think, yes.

After there's the whole question of the kind of rules that creates the most entertainment at the game table, of course, hence the rules existence in the first place, but if the core idea's still there, it is D&D.

 

[The Little Raven]

So if I make D&D 4e a game with only one mechanic... where you flip a coin with heads=succeeds and tails=fails...(no classes, you just describe your man, no spells you create them on the fly, etc.) is it still D&D?

Well, technically, 3e was supposed to be the game of one mechanic: d20 + modifiers against DC, higher is always better.

And using a coin flip to represent it's mechanics as a negative thing was a common thing to the anti-3e crowd.

I would argue not to majority of players and the game would fail as representing or even being D&D to most.

And 2e fanboys said the same about 3e. It's all subjective.

 

[Imaro]

If you are going through Dungeons, killing Dragons and taking their stuff? I think, yes.

After there's the whole question of the kind of rules that creates the most entertainment at the game table, of course, hence the rules existence in the first place, but if the core idea's still there, it is D&D.

In your oppinon it is, but we are talking about a baseline experience and what the baseline experience of D&D has come to be understood as by most people. I doubt what you described above is what the baseline of D&D is for most people. When I think of D&D it is not a series of endless rooms, each populated dy a dragon I must kill for "stuff".

 

[Minicol]

Seconded. I'll also say wait a few months. We're eight months out folks. Vista didn't have a solid preview for journalists until month 4 (outside of beta crap). I personally have stopped reading a majority of the 4e threads.

QUOTE]

As far as I know, Vista is a major failure for Microsoft, performing way below expectations.
And I am not surprised in the least by this.

I agree with you on the wait until 4e to make an final opinion, though what I saw in all the threads so far had angered me to various extents, so I don't think I will bother to buy even the three core rulebooks.

 

[The Little Raven]

As far as I know, Vista is a major failure for Microsoft, performing way below expectations.

Bad analogy.

D&D 4th Edition is designed for gamers. There's no other demographic you can design the game for and have any chance of success.

Vista was written for content providers, not for consumers. It was built to be a digital rights management operating system, and costumer concerns were at the top of their list if that customer is a multi-billion dollar corporation that produces music or movies.

So, one was designed with the people who use it in mind (4e) while the other was designed with other parties in mind besides the end-user (Vista).

 

[Nifft]

I doubt what you described above is what the baseline of D&D is for most people. When I think of D&D it is not a series of endless rooms, each populated dy a dragon I must kill for "stuff".

Sad to say, that was a lot of my 1e experience.

"I open the door!" (5 ft. wide by 10 ft. high)
"It's an Ancient Red Dragon! Roll for initiative!"

After killing the dragon, we discovered no other doors or exits. And we didn't wonder why not. Ah, youth.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Minicol]

You had to pay for those when they were in print format too, you know.

It's not a matter of paying. It's a matter of having something in your hands that matters to you, written by people who share your tastes. I would have paid gladly a lot more to have the mags remain on paper.