Level Up (A5E) I'm worried that Create Water will break my party's cleric.

[thenightgaunt]

I'm not sure I see the relevance of the question, since purify food and drink needs to be cast on Supply and create or destroy water doesn't create Supply.

Yeah, but that call just kinda seems, I donno, silly. Sorry.

So the "Supply" concept was to basically simplify the food/water consumption requirements and make it easier to then modify them with abilities and such.

The book says rations are basically a day's worth of food and water, and 1 unit of rations provides 1 supply (p329).
And T&T goes into more detail on this on page 55
"Mundane consumable items like food and water are simplified into a single item called Supply. When an adventurer gains access to food and water, they can add Supply to their inventory. Basic rations (dry food and water) usually costs 5 silver for 1 Supply, but finer foods may cost more.
• 1 Supply consists of enough combined food and water to sustain a Small- or Medium sized creature for a day."

And the optional Desperate Supplies rules on the same page lay out that 1 supply is basically 1 pound of food and 1 gallon of water.

But this doesn't mean that 1 supply = exactly 1 days food and water. For example fishing traps provide 1d4 supply in fish. That's food, not water, but it still counts as supply. Meanwhile medium mounts require 1 supply a day. But it's a rough system no an exact one. You can't feed a riding horse on fish.
So supply works for the purpose of simplifying food and water requirements.

So specifying that Purify food and drink won't work on food or water but only on supply is kinda...dumb. If it's stripping all toxins out of food and water then it's making nonpotable water potable. The change doesn't really work unless the desire is to make create water and purify food and drink both far less useful. Because again, all a "supply" is, is about a days worth of food and water for a person.

Though page 363 of the AG also says that create or destroy water is supposed to create supply. Though the statement that supply (eg food and water) cannot be stored in extradimensional spaces also makes no sense.

Now a change that would make more sense, but would still weaken the spell for no real reason, would be to make Create or Destroy Water a duration spell. Once the time runs out the 10 gallons of water disappears. Meaning that you get a lot of temporary water or just 1 gallon of good permanent water.

Or just let Create or Destroy Water create 1 gallon of fresh water, or 10 gallons of non-potable water which can then be made pure by burning a Purify Food and Drink to make a number of gallons potable equal to the caster's proficiency bonus.

 

[Morrus]

Yeah, but that call just kinda seems, I donno, silly. Sorry.

Well, OK then.

 

[thenightgaunt]

Well, OK then.

Sorry. I mean. Supply is just a simple term to help simplify the use of water and rations. The AG and TT pretty much lay out that it's just a way of measuring the amount of food and water a medium sized creature needs in a day. Specifically 1 pound of food and 1 gallon of water.

So food and water being listed as 1 supply doesn't magically change it into something else. It's not like it get's crammed into a magic box that turns it into 1 dose of "nutrient paste". So spells that specify they effect 1 supply are effecting 1 days worth of food and water.

If we block off the use of a spell called Purify Food and Drink because of a term, then we're going into Hackmaster "the needle does 1/4th a point of damage so first aide causes damage since it requires you use a needle to stitch up wounds" territory.

 

[tetrasodium]

Yeah, but that call just kinda seems, I donno, silly. Sorry.

So the "Supply" concept was to basically simplify the food/water consumption requirements and make it easier to then modify them with abilities and such.

The book says rations are basically a day's worth of food and water, and 1 unit of rations provides 1 supply (p329).
And T&T goes into more detail on this on page 55
"Mundane consumable items like food and water are simplified into a single item called Supply. When an adventurer gains access to food and water, they can add Supply to their inventory. Basic rations (dry food and water) usually costs 5 silver for 1 Supply, but finer foods may cost more.
• 1 Supply consists of enough combined food and water to sustain a Small- or Medium sized creature for a day."

And the optional Desperate Supplies rules on the same page lay out that 1 supply is basically 1 pound of food and 1 gallon of water.

But this doesn't mean that 1 supply = exactly 1 days food and water. For example fishing traps provide 1d4 supply in fish. That's food, not water, but it still counts as supply. Meanwhile medium mounts require 1 supply a day. But it's a rough system no an exact one. You can't feed a riding horse on fish.
So supply works for the purpose of simplifying food and water requirements.

So specifying that Purify food and drink won't work on food or water but only on supply is kinda...dumb. If it's stripping all toxins out of food and water then it's making nonpotable water potable. The change doesn't really work unless the desire is to make create water and purify food and drink both far less useful. Because again, all a "supply" is, is about a days worth of food and water for a person.

Though page 363 of the AG also says that create or destroy water is supposed to create supply. Though the statement that supply (eg food and water) cannot be stored in extradimensional spaces also makes no sense.

Now a change that would make more sense, but would still weaken the spell for no real reason, would be to make Create or Destroy Water a duration spell. Once the time runs out the 10 gallons of water disappears. Meaning that you get a lot of temporary water or just 1 gallon of good permanent water.

Or just let Create or Destroy Water create 1 gallon of fresh water, or 10 gallons of non-potable water which can then be made pure by burning a Purify Food and Drink to make a number of gallons potable equal to the caster's proficiency bonus.

If you are the gm & want it to work that way great do so. If you aren't the gm & your gm does not want to trivialize the burden of maintaining supply they need only not carve out exceptions to do so making it a much lower bar than tracking down & nerfing all of the abilities that trivialize it over player complaints about being nerfed like would be needed in o5e.

 

[thenightgaunt]

If you are the gm & want it to work that way great do so. If you aren't the gm & your gm does not want to trivialize the burden of maintaining supply they need only not carve out exceptions to do so making it a much lower bar than tracking down & nerfing all of the abilities that trivialize it over player complaints about being nerfed like would be needed in o5e.

True that.

Though please note that my comment there was in response to Morris' statment that the spells in question no longer worked as they were in the latest PDF and had effectively been eratta'd by him today in the post where he said that Purify Food and Drink no longer purified food or drink and Create or Destroy Water no longer created drinkable water.

When was that errataed? The AG I have marked _v2a has:

"Create Water: You fill the target with up to 10 gallons of nonpotable water or 1 Supply of clean water. Alternatively, the water falls as rain that extinguishes exposed flames in the area."

Today at 6.07pm UK time.

Though, to be fair, dude could just be trolling a little and I could be taking it too seriously.

 

[Faolyn]

But this doesn't mean that 1 supply = exactly 1 days food and water. For example fishing traps provide 1d4 supply in fish. That's food, not water, but it still counts as supply. Meanwhile medium mounts require 1 supply a day. But it's a rough system no an exact one. You can't feed a riding horse on fish.
So supply works for the purpose of simplifying food and water requirements.

Plus, once upon a time, Morrus said they used Supply as insect repellent.

(I find it more strange that hunting--which presumably has the ability to possibly bring down a deer or other large (or Large) animal--only nets one Supply, or two on a critical success. I would have gone with a d4 Supplies--or perhaps the ability to use one Supply as bait, and if you do so, then you gain d4 Supplies on a success.

Though page 363 of the AG also says that create or destroy water is supposed to create supply. Though the statement that supply (eg food and water) cannot be stored in extradimensional spaces also makes no sense.

For this part, I would say that the type of extra-dimensional space found in bags of holding is really weird and does equally weird things to food. Like, you can consume it, but it might mutate you.

Or just let Create or Destroy Water create 1 gallon of fresh water, or 10 gallons of non-potable water which can then be made pure by burning a Purify Food and Drink to make a number of gallons potable equal to the caster's proficiency bonus.

This I like.

 

[Stalker0]

(I find it more strange that hunting--which presumably has the ability to possibly bring down a deer or other large (or Large) animal--only nets one Supply, or two on a critical success. I would have gone with a d4 Supplies--or perhaps the ability to use one Supply as bait, and if you do so, then you gain d4 Supplies on a success.

Technically journey activities are not meant to be tracked on a daily basis, but kind of larger ongoing effort as you travel through a region.

So when you determine that your hunt checks net 6 supply in the week lets say, that could be berries you found every day or it could be a bear you took down and have lived off for the week. The flavor is really yours to decide.

 

[Stalker0]

The other thing that the changing of Create or Destroy water is going to do for my game, which I was already leaning towards already....is making supply REALLY about food. Yes some water is thrown in there, but really I'm tracking food. I think that goes better with the mechanics of how supply is tracked, and the fact you can have a lot of supply on you but no impact your carrying capacity, etc. If you really start including water that weight goes through the roof in comparison.

 

[éxypnos]

So I have finally kicked off my survival focused game. The players have been dropped into the wilderness, with 138 souls to help feed, with low supplies, some broken weapons, and armor....and a very hostile wilderness.

First session went pretty well. We established a lot, tried out some journey checks, etc. I decided to go with a hybrid of the simple and advanced supply systems. I did not split water and food but I did require "supply containers". So most PCs have 2-3 containers for supply, so only a limited number of days of supplies should they adventure beyond the main group. And I require that they consume supply everyday, so they either have to focus their day on "hunt/gather" or get supplies through some other source. In other words, in my game, the journey never really stops, because there is no civilization.

My concern right now is the 3rd level cleric who has Create Water. Even at this low a level he could supply 4 PCs everyday with just his 1st level slots, not even 2nd. Now gamewise I am not too worried about that, there will be lots of hostile situations, and so the cleric will be out of most of their spells and that will cause a lot of issue when the frying pan meets the fire.

My bigger worry is this is putting too much burden on the cleric. It feels a little like 2e where clerics were pressured to always have heal spells prepared in most of their slots or watch their fellow party members die. Now I'm worried the cleric is going to get pressured, basically give up a spell slot to allow another player to do something other than hunt/gather. So either the cleric gives up a spell, or the other player "wastes their day" just doing basic survival, and I worry that the other players will get upset if the cleric decides to keep their slots.


It may be a phantom fear, just something I'm noting with this spell because it is "only" a 1st level slot it seems like a waste not to use it for supply. If people have thoughts and advice let me know, otherwise I'll let you all know how it goes in the next few sessions.

Edit: Actually an idea just came to me I might try. I may assume that the cleric does all of his create water at the end of the day. That way if a hostile situation comes, he can use his slots. But...that also means there may be a supply shortage and therefore fatigue. That may be a good compromise, the party still gambles by not focusing on survival, but the cleric doesn't have to feel so pressured to have no slots all day.

worry about DMing and not about how the players will solve the problems. That's what I learned after GMing for 40+ years

 

[Faolyn]

Technically journey activities are not meant to be tracked on a daily basis, but kind of larger ongoing effort as you travel through a region.

So when you determine that your hunt checks net 6 supply in the week lets say, that could be berries you found every day or it could be a bear you took down and have lived off for the week. The flavor is really yours to decide.

Except... you spend X days performing an activity--hunting/gathering--and you gain 1 Supply, no matter how long a period of time you spent on it. You spend one day hunting/gathering, you gain 1 Supply. You spend 10 days hunting, you gain 1 Supply. Or two, if you roll a 20. So it literally doesn't make any sense to spend any longer than one day hunting/gathering. Go any longer than that, and you're actually losing Supply, and there are many, many other activities that can be just as or more useful or just more fun. ("I spend the time busking." "You're in a forest with no intelligent beings in it." "I'm busking for the squirrels. So there" "...The squirrels listen for a while and then throw an acorn in your tip jar.")

Maybe it meant to have been written "you gain 1 Supply for each day you spent on the activity," so if you spent 10 days hunting/gathering, you gain 10 Supply--enough to break even and keep your supply of Supply from shrinking. And I'd accept that. You killed a bear one day and got handfuls of berries and mushrooms the rest of the time. It evens out. It still isn't great, though, since you're hunting for exactly enough food for 1 person (or two, if you roll a 20). It honestly would make more sense to break out of journey time and actually RP hunting in order to bag a deer--unless you really don't think that starvation is going to be an issue at the time and thus are only doing enough hunting/gathering to stay even, or because your character doesn't have anything else to do during the journey montage.

A few minutes of googling suggests that, at minimum--you kill a scrawny doe and have poor butchering skills--you'd get about 35pounds of meat from it. don't know what that is in Supply, but I'd be willing to say something like, make a DC X Survival roll to butcher it, and you get 1d4 Supply plus 1 for each point you roll over that DC, and if you crit fail, you get tainted meat. The only reason to not do this is because breaking out of montage time invites wandering monsters, getting lost, encountering hazards, and other unpleasantness. But if the party actually is hurting for food, then this makes a lot more sense than using the hunting/gathering activity.