Imagine, no Battlemat...

[Scarbonac]

I love the battlemat, prefer to play with one (at least with group scenarios) and bought one the instant I could afford it. Prior to that it was sketches on graph paper, which, while do-able, was a tremendous waste of paper as opposed to the economical reusable 'mat and wet-or-dry-erase markers.


Gamer for 24+ years, FWIW.

 

[wedgeski]

You said it there, "same game and more imagination"

Did you mean this post to be so insulting?

I'd love to observe this game of yours and see exactly how combats play out. I can *imagine* very well thanks. If one of my players asks me where the third bad guy from the left is and whether he'll get caught in his cone of cold, I can imagine very easily. Next round I can imagine again, no problem. Third round, when everyone's dodging and weaving in this perfectly realised shared vision you're talking about, taken 5-foot steps to avoid getting clobbered by this that and the other, jumped over tables or under bad guys' legs, I can imagine all too well where everyone *might* be, but I can't with any certainty say where they *are*.

The point is not about imagination, it's about play-style. Players who like the battlemat enjoy the tactical subsystems that the designers have put into D&D combat, and enjoy the challenge of making the most of their character's abilities during a fight. Players who don't like the BM seem to be able to take or leave a tactical combat system in favour of a purely descriptive fight which probably uses less outright mechanics in favour of ad-hoc and improvised rules. Neither approaches says anything about the quality of the game as a whole or the commitment of the players to the roleplaying experience.

 

[BryonD]

Did you mean this post to be so insulting?

I'd love to observe this game of yours and see exactly how combats play out. I can *imagine* very well thanks.

<SNIP>

GRIN

Agreed.

It is funny to me that people who claim that maps are for people without imagination often make comments like:

You can't get immersion if you're using a grid and minis, they're like oil and water in my experience.

Exactly who is it that really has imagination limitations anyway????? Just because YOU can't get your imagination working in sync with minis doesn't mean others share your handicap.

Note: I am NOT saying that this applies to all people who don't use minis. I know there are many exceptions and you can play great fun games without minis. But this case is still a common experience.

 

[DonTadow]

GRIN

Agreed.

It is funny to me that people who claim that maps are for people without imagination often make comments like:

Exactly who is it that really has imagination limitations anyway????? Just because YOU can't get your imagination working in sync with minis doesn't mean others share your handicap.

Note: I am NOT saying that this applies to all people who don't use minis. I know there are many exceptions and you can play great fun games without minis. But this case is still a common experience.

Yeah, it was a silly comment. I can't relate imagination to position. The two have nothing to do with one another. the only viable argument I can see against battlemaps is time consumption. This racked about imagination being hendered doesnt hold any basis.

Someone will have to tell me how your incredible imagination can get six people to agree on the same vision of a battle, at every six second interval. Honestly I'm betting those who don't use battlemaps pretty much just have players whom concede their own idea of the battlfield in trusting the DM's interpretation of the battle, thus the DM's imagination is supreme. The games often have a Laurel and Hardy who's on first conversation from time to time.
Player 1: I"m behind him
DM: No you're near the horses
Player 2: I thought the horses ran away
Player 1: I thought we brought them into the combat
Player 3: Am I still flanking
Player 2: is my spiritual weapon attacking orc1 or orc 2
ect.
Again I can't see why some dms would avoid these time consuming discusions with at the least using a loose leaf paper and some dice to indicate position. In some cases I can see why time is a factor but from some of the reasons (I've been doing it this way for 30 years ) it seems more like arogance.

 

[megamania]

When I started we didn't have or use figures or mats. Then one day I set up a Darksun Gladiatorial match and we amazed how it worked. Not better- just different. Anytime we were in a fixed arena like that we then used a grid and wooden tokens with initails or numbers on them.

Then I started to buy and paint minis which became a new hobby in and of itself. We began to use them in other combats.

Then out came 3e which had feats and special abilities directed at the use of miniatures. Now with 3.5 and literally 5000+ figures (painted, toys and DnD minis) we generally grid everything out.

On a rare case we can and do run a battle without a grid. You know- 5 level 1 goblins vs 5 level 5 adventures. "Didn't roll a one? dead. Cleave".

As for the grid use removing imagination- bah!

It's the DM that describes smell, touch, taste, sounds and what is seen on these blue 1x1 inch squares. The players have distinct thoughts on character descriptions and styles. The game is mainly about the use of imagination. The grid merely organizes it.

 

[KenM]

IMO a battlemat or something that shows where the PC's are is critical for when the BBEG lets loss the fire or the trap goes off.

DM: Make a reflex save, you are in the area of effect.
PLayer 1: No i'm not.

 

[Thaniel]

As someone who does the majority of his D&Ding through IRC, I'll chip in and say that battlemaps are not necessary. And, in an online game (without using some online battlemap program [which i have other problems with]) trying to fudge a battlemap takes up time in an already-slow playing medium. Heck, one of my online DMs didn't even use initiative. He told us when it was our turn. Worked out marvelously.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

The last time I played tabletop without a battlemap featured this conversation:
Player: "I shoot at the spectres once and move to the back of the party."
DM: OK, the spectres' turn. They move right up next to you and attack. Take four negative levels."
Player: But they're a long way away, right? Can they move that far?
DM: They're very fast.
Player: Don't they take any AoOs moving through the entire party like that?
DM: Nope. There's enough room for them to get through.
Other Player: I thought we were in a 10' corridor; how can there be that much room?
DM: There's enough room. That's just the way it is.
Player: Fine.

After the game:
Player 1: I'm not gaming with that DM again.
Player 2: Me neither.

I've done some AIM games without a map though we did have a gridded map that we used to keep track of where people were in one combat. They featured a lot of "can I move and hit him?"/"No"/"OK, can I move and cast a spell and end up where he can't charge me?"/"How do you know how far he can charge?"/"I'll assume he's normal human speed--he looks like a human."/"You move over there." Next round: "I move up next to"/"But you're already there."

Yuck. It worked alright when there was only one opponent whom we couldn't see. And it worked alright when there was a fairly clear position with only 1 PC in a relevant position and the combat was very short. (I charge him with the lance/ OK, you nearly drop him. Since you're in front of the door then, you'll get AoOs with your lance for the four orcs that are coming out from behind the wall now. OK, you dropped three out of four. Now, the rest of the party magic missiles the fourth and the BBEG. You're done.) In general, it didn't work too well.

As for cinematics, I've found that miniatures can actually be a big help if the terrain is detailed enough. (Oone games rendered battlemaps are great for this). If players see that the BBEG is right next to a stack of barrels and a bannister, they might hop on the barrels, hop up to the bannister and balance there while attacking. If they don't see exactly where he is, any such manuever would require a detailed description of the room (noting that there is a staircase with a stack of barrels next to it right next to the table where the PCs start and then that the NPC backed himself next to the staircase) followed by a series of questions: how close is he to the bannister? Can I jump up to the bannister? How about if I hop onto the barrels first? The barrels you said were stacked near the staircase. With a detailed map, players can see possibilities directly without asking lots of questions of the DMs.

 

[Nebulous]

As for cinematics, I've found that miniatures can actually be a big help if the terrain is detailed enough. (Oone games rendered battlemaps are great for this). If players see that the BBEG is right next to a stack of barrels and a bannister, they might hop on the barrels, hop up to the bannister and balance there while attacking. If they don't see exactly where he is, any such manuever would require a detailed description of the room (noting that there is a staircase with a stack of barrels next to it right next to the table where the PCs start and then that the NPC backed himself next to the staircase) followed by a series of questions: how close is he to the bannister? Can I jump up to the bannister? How about if I hop onto the barrels first? The barrels you said were stacked near the staircase. With a detailed map, players can see possibilities directly without asking lots of questions of the DMs.

And i think this is one of the best arguments for having detailed, premade battlemats. Not for every encounter, sure, but for major fights, against multiple foes, it injects a whole new quality to the game. Not better necessarily, but different. I have the Oone maps and as a DM, they're so much fun to string together into new shapes, room, corridors. etc. They say a picture is worth a thousand words, and if a kickass picture can set the mood for the players, the very GROUND they're standing on, well, that just saved me a lot of words and leaves time for more dice-rolling. A good battlemap, for heavy combat, i think intensifies and streamlines gameplay.

But it's simply not for everyone's style. And as many have pointed out, it does get ridiculously expensive. Fiery Dragon was great about having printable counters, which are great when glued to pennies. I started making my own miniatures based on that concept, propping them up on clay stands. For like $2 i can get a page of full color monsters in 2 dimensions.

And other terrains can be made with clumps of grass or leaves or sticks, and clay, coupled with a basic battlemat.

Battlemats and minis require more time investment for the DM too, so maybe that's another hindrance for people. It just boils down to what is enjoyable, and i suppose that's a per-person basis.

 

[glass]

I've played 3e since it came out (give or take a few weeks) and I had never seen a battlemat until a couple of weeks ago. We're using one now, however.


glass.