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Imagine, no Battlemat...

What I do about the wizards fireball issue is this: Give the wizard a spellcraft check.

DC 10 + Spell level + Circumstancial Modifier (He wants to hit the evil goblin, but not the dwarf that's fighting him for instance. Let's say +4 to the DC)

So the *player* can aim perfectly, but if he botches his check, the fireball might not hit the exact spot he wanted to. :]

EDIT: Note, I only use this in special situations of course, not for every spell the wizard is going to cast.
 

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Okay, here comes the heat.
Flexor the Mighty! said:
They main thing I HATE about a map is square counting. I DESPISE it when the Wizard counts off squares in between his turns and figures out how to perfectly place his AE spell to get the bad guys but amazingly avoid anyone in the party.
The thing I hate about square counting is how the Fighter counts off squares between his turns and figures out how to perfectly place his arrow shot to get the bad guy but amazingly avoids hitting anyone in the party who happens to be in between.
In a fluid moving battle there is no time for a Wizard to do something like that, and I don't like it when the players do something like that, but it's nearly impossible to avoid.
Oh to be sure. In a fluid, moving battle there is no time for ANYONE to do ANYTHING like that. :\ It is, in my considered opinion, nonsense to assume that a wizard has absolutely no concept of distances (like a fighter with a missile weaapon does) and thus cannot cast a spell at an ACCURATE distance. The way magic works in D&D (the way it has always worked) is that unless the caster is interrupted while casting - in which case the spell fails ENTIRELY - the spell WILL take effect exactly when, where, and against whom the CASTER decides while still following the spell description. The spell either works exactly as cast or it fails entirely. All or nothing. Saving Throws are a LAST DITCH defense that victims are sometimes (but not always) granted to avoid or lessen the effects that otherwise WILL happen.

Nothing in D&D rules - not any version of the game, ever - has even remotely suggested that wizards should not be allowed to be every bit as specific with spell range and placement as the player desires. Nothing that even remotely suggests that a spell CAN'T be placed where the wizard wants it, that it can't be positioned just as accurately as squeezing a bowshot across a chaotic battlefield at a single individual in a crowd, nor that it can't be done EVERY time just like the last. There's plenty in the rules to reinforce the idea that he can indeed do just that or why else would spell ranges be stated as "60'+10' per level" instead of "somewhere around 60'+10' per level", why area of effect would be stated as 15' radius rather than "At least 10' radius - but sometimes as much as 20' radius!" Why have there never been RULES for "being just a little off on targetting the area", or "underestimating the range", or advice on handling those annoying players who strangely seem to think their wizards WOULD try to place that 20' radius fireball to hit ALL the enemies and NONE of their friends (what presumption!)?

The only meaningful reason for directly incorporating miniatures and a grid into the 3E rules was to eliminate the endless, pointless fudging and arbitrary rulings about just that sort of thing. (Okay, it also helps sell miniatures.) In past versions those practices came with associated disagreements and misunderstandings. They arose from assuming that Wizards are all blind as proverbial bats with uncontrollable palsies and oblivious to even basic tactics (like ACCURATE placement) that could make the most of their limited resource of daily spells. That, despite effectively being defined as smarter than the average Barbarian who apparantly WOULD know well enough to place area-effects to maximize damage to bad-guys and minimize danger to friendlies. I happen to agree with said reasons for incorporating grids and accordingly EXPECT every PC - wizards included - to use them to full advantage CONSTANTLY, not just when it's inconvenient for the DM. By covering specific squares on a grid, defined by rules, there CANNOT, by definition, be any unfairness in the accuracy of where/how a player has his spellcaster place his spells. The spell either affects what is in a given square or it doesn't - it either misses the friendly PC and hits the bad guy in the next square, or it hits BOTH and there is no question as to why since the player makes the decision about where the effect is.

But maybe that's just me. If you simply prefer a bit of uncertainty in your D&D combats, well good on ya. But this thing about somehow percieving it to be UNFAIR that wizards can use a grid to (GASP!) decide where to place the spell rather than letting the DM decide where the PLAYER character will place his spell is really... not well-considered. It was an idea that had already overstayed its welcome in the '80's and hasn't improved with age. YMMV.
 

Gahnomen said:
What I do about the wizards fireball issue is this: Give the wizard a spellcraft check.
And so, to be even REMOTELY sensible for doing this, I can only assume that you require a spellcraft check of ALL spells that have an area of effect that is not centered on the caster since clearly a caster cannot and should not have the ability to reliably control his spells?
EDIT: Note, I only use this in special situations of course, not for every spell the wizard is going to cast.
Ah. I see. Um...

Could you explain why fireball should be an exception (and note for us what other spells you do this for)? Or perhaps you could explain what a "special situation" is in this context?
 

Personally, I like battlemaps because, as the DM and being kind of flighty at times, it helps me keep straight where things are and what is going on. It helps me figure out just what the heck my NPCs are doing, where they are doing it, and how it all comes off while being fair to the players.

As a player, I like it because, as previously stated, I can be a bit flighty at times and have been known to forget or gloss over important bits of information. ("Oh, the Lich was there? I thought he was over here!")

I can, however, play without them and have done so, I just prefer not to.
 

The thing I hate about square counting is how the Fighter counts off squares between his turns and figures out how to perfectly place his arrow shot to get the bad guy but amazingly avoids hitting anyone in the party who happens to be in between.

If Robin Hood can do it, the PC fighter at my game table can do it.
 

Viva le Vis-a-Vis!

For us, the game session doesn't really begin until the battlemat is unrolled. We all love our battlemat. We love drawing maps to exact scale. We love positioning everyone on their own perfect square, being sure not to step on any lines. We love moving into flanking position, while perfectly just missing taking any AoO's from anyone. 3.5 is all about the battlemat.
I wonder if this has anything to do with the fact that 4 out of 5 of us are in the engineering field?
Later!
Gruns
 


Man in the Funny Hat said:
And so, to be even REMOTELY sensible for doing this, I can only assume that you require a spellcraft check of ALL spells that have an area of effect that is not centered on the caster since clearly a caster cannot and should not have the ability to reliably control his spells?
Ah. I see. Um...

Could you explain why fireball should be an exception (and note for us what other spells you do this for)? Or perhaps you could explain what a "special situation" is in this context?

These situations tend to be easy to see when they crop up. It's the times when the player asks the DM, "Is this going to work?" EVEN when using a battlemap. As for the wizard being able to reliably casts his spells.. He certainly should, but only to a certain degree of accuracy.

"I wish to place the fireball so that it hits those 5 orcs over there, but not the paladin over with the golem, and not my buddy sorcerer that's flying over the action." - This might need a Spellcraft check.

It's not all that different to me than a rogue going, "I want to hit that dragon right in the eye with my arrow." It should certainly require a roll, not automatically happen.

In my opinion of course :)

EDIT: This only applies to spells that indicate some sort of need for a skill on the behalf of the wizard. Fireball is a good example of this. Magic missile or Chain lightning is not, as these find their own way to the targets, so to speak.
 

My gaming groups have always been people with a great deal of tactical knowledge, so a battlemat has been a necessity, especially in Modern/Future games where there are more tactics than "I rush up and Power Attack the dragon with my greataxe." If nothing else it resolves all those issues of following d20 movement and area effect rules, so a character in med/heavy armor has a noteworthy disadvantage and things like cover and whether or not you can magic missile all the rats can be determined without the DM having to make a SWAG.

Also very handy for starship combats.
 

Gahnomen said:
"I wish to place the fireball so that it hits those 5 orcs over there, but not the paladin over with the golem, and not my buddy sorcerer that's flying over the action." - This might need a Spellcraft check.
The counterpoint being, of course, that use of the grid ELIMINATES this. A monster is either in a given square or it's not. That square is either within the spell area or it's not. The sorceror is either obviously avoidable by adjusting the spell placement or he isn't, and it doesn't require anything more than looking at where things are for all to see if it will work or not. A grid specifically facilitates this and that's partly why I find it incomprehensible that anyone should then complain, "The players are actually USING the grid! This MUST be discouraged!"
EDIT: This only applies to spells that indicate some sort of need for a skill on the behalf of the wizard. Fireball is a good example of this.
Fireball has a singular exception (targeting the spell on the other side of narrow openings like arrow slits) which the spell description already provides rules for.
 

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