Imbued Summoning and Swarms

[Dyir]

I think that would make the feat a little less terrible, but I think the phrase "using a prepared spell or a spell slot" indicates that the designer intended the "buff spell" to be used up as though the character had cast it. On the other hand, having to use up two spell slots, one of which is higher than normal, just to be able to summon a minion with Bull's Strength or Invisibility already cast on it is a little hard to swallow. Especially since you are also already paying a feat for the privilege.

I have no idea how the OC's DM handles the feat, though. If he agrees with your assessment, then (IMO) you've already begun to enter a gray area that might be considered within "house rules." And, at that point, whether or not swarms can be affected by the "buff spell" granted by that feat is one of taste and game balance, rather than RAW. And, honestly, given how the feat is worded, I think a few house rules would mighty help the feat.

 

[roske]

I think that would make the feat a little less terrible, but I think the phrase "using a prepared spell or a spell slot" indicates that the designer intended the "buff spell" to be used up as though the character had cast it. On the other hand, having to use up two spell slots, one of which is higher than normal, just to be able to summon a minion with Bull's Strength or Invisibility already cast on it is a little hard to swallow. Especially since you are also already paying a feat for the privilege.

I read it that the imbued spell is memorized as one level higher and that _any_ memorized touch spell of 3rd level or lower may be attached to the imbued spell at moment of casting.

I have no idea how the OC's DM handles the feat, though. If he agrees with your assessment, then (IMO) you've already begun to enter a gray area that might be considered within "house rules." And, at that point, whether or not swarms can be affected by the "buff spell" granted by that feat is one of taste and game balance, rather than RAW. And, honestly, given how the feat is worded, I think a few house rules would mighty help the feat.

This has not really come up in the game, as I have not really used the feat that much. It is going to be the DMs call. I wanted to get some discussion going so I can point out how there are a few ways to interpret it, and I also think my interpretation works fine.

Thinking about this some more, I wonder what people have to say about Warlocks using this feat to apply Imbued Invocations onto swarms...

 

[Sekhmet]

Most invocations are Target Personal, Ranged Touch, or Radius. I can't think of too many that would come up in the way of "touch" spells.

 

[frankthedm]

I think that would make the feat a little less terrible, but I think the phrase "using a prepared spell or a spell slot" indicates that the designer intended the "buff spell" to be used up as though the character had cast it. On the other hand, having to use up two spell slots, one of which is higher than normal, just to be able to summon a minion with Bull's Strength or Invisibility already cast on it is a little hard to swallow. Especially since you are also already paying a feat for the privilege.

It is analogous to Quicken, but not as costly with more limitations.

 

[Dyir]

It is analogous to Quicken, but not as costly with more limitations.

I assumed that, although I admit to feeling that the majority of Metamagic feats are too costly for what they do. Very few of my players have ever taken any, so when I read the description, I was immediately turned off by the description. I suppose it's a case of personal choice if the limitations are worth the payoff.

Perhaps my wording was a little too strong. Although I do stand by the fact that I believe that the feat's wording is on the poorer side and could have benefited for a little cleanup.

 

[jefgorbach]

I agree it would work because the Imbue Summoning feat allows you to weave any spell upto 3rd level INTO your Summoning spell which then has an effective spell level of the Summoning spell +1. Its affecting the Summoning spell itself so whatever immunities the end-creature(s) may have are irrelevant during the casting.

Its unclear whether the selected buff spell remains available to the player afterwards, so I would rule it does to favor the player ... however could see a reasonable argument being made that both the Summoning AND buff spells were cast simultaneously and thus both spell slots were expended.

Q: why buff spells? It sees reasonable to imbue the swarm with an Entangle effect, thereby requiring its foes to make a DC20 strength or Escape Artist check to flee its painfully distracting embrace.

 

[roske]

I agree it would work because the Imbue Summoning feat allows you to weave any spell upto 3rd level INTO your Summoning spell which then has an effective spell level of the Summoning spell +1. Its affecting the Summoning spell itself so whatever immunities the end-creature(s) may have are irrelevant during the casting.

Its unclear whether the selected buff spell remains available to the player afterwards, so I would rule it does to favor the player ... however could see a reasonable argument being made that both the Summoning AND buff spells were cast simultaneously and thus both spell slots were expended.

Q: why buff spells? It sees reasonable to imbue the swarm with an Entangle effect, thereby requiring its foes to make a DC20 strength or Escape Artist check to flee its painfully distracting embrace.

oh ya, if Imbued Summoning allows swarms to have spells cast on them there are all kinds of cool things. It seems clear to me that Imbued Summoning allows the simultaneous casting of a memorized touch spell. however, it is unclear in the manner. i have been swayed by the argument that it is like a cheap Quicken for touch spells. so, i have let this one go. swarms are immune to touch spells.

i would allow effecting swarms through an enhanced Imbued Summoning, like having the PC spend another feat to effect swarms, or perhaps make it a class skill for a Prestige Class.

 

[darqueseid]

metamagic, etc

I don't think using imbue summoning on a swarm is any more broken than using imbue summoning on normal summons.

Fistly, to clear up a few things, the feat is worded poorly, but it does say that you can summon creature(S) with the buff already on them. To me that implies that you can summon multiple creatures with the imbued buff on it at a time.

Secondly, a swarm is ONE creature. So in thinking about how the spells would affect the creature, some spells like invisibility would probably work, but many touch spells would either have reduced or no effect. It would probably have to be done on a case by case basis.

Imbue summoning is a good feat, because it is versatile, especially with the spell compendium available. I'm thinking Girralon's blessing + the best BAB and STR creature is really good, Haste+anything is usually good (but you probly want to cast that on the whole party), Invis + summoned sneak attackers, resist energy + when fighting fire elementals, etc. The number of choices are really the strength of this feat. ALL that being said, there's not alot of feats out there that really do improve summons, so its kinda worth it regardless.

If your planning to use this, take metamagic school focus(CArcane) conj also (reduces the cost of applying a metamagic by 1 3xday and it reduces to 0), so you can imbue those 9th lvl summons. also use metamagic rapid(from a rod (Complete Divine)) to cast as a standard action

Imagine the first round of combat
summoner casts rapid imbued(girrilon's blessing) summon monster (whatever your highest level summons is) and quicken some other spell... you just cast 3 spells in 1 round. The Only other way u can do that is with a 9th lvl spell, timestop... not to mention the bad guy just got a monster with 4 attacks dropped on his face.

 

[Pergentile]

Swarm is immune to spells/effects that 'Target x'.
One is not attempting to 'Target x'.
One is 'Applying an effect that normally has "Target X", but not at this time.'
The immunity is irrelevant, as long as adding the effect does not require one to 'Target X'. If one is not attempting to 'Target X', then effects that are relevant to an attempt to 'Target X' become irrelevant.