Immediate Actions *can't* be used when flat-footed?

[Nail]

Here's the situation:

"Blade" (a Mnk 2/ Warblade 6) steps on a Symbol of Insanity
(Will save DC 22) that he did NOT know was there. He is
surprised. He's not in combat. Initiative is not, and will
not, be rolled. Blade must roll a Will save.

Can he use an immediate action to initiate Moment of Perfect Mind?

I know our hero certainly hopes so! The manuever takes an immediate action to activate, and it allows him to substitute a Concentration skill check for a Will saving throw. Since his Concentration check is +25 - and you can't "auto-fail" a skill check on a natural 1 - if he can use the manuever, his success is assured.

The problem is that immediate actions can't be used while flat-footed. Isn't Blade flat-footed? In fact, isn't everyone flat-footed until initiative is rolled? Doesn't that mean you are always flat-footed when out of combat?

 

[Wish]

If, instead, Blade fell in a pit trap, would you let him cast feather fall? Also an immediate action. And if it can't be used without rolling initiative, it's almost entirely useless. (Seriously, a spell to prevent falling damage that you can only use in combat, after your initiative? What good would that be?)

 

[Nail]

*Exactly*

And yet......

 

[Goolpsy]

Initiative and Being flat-footed is only used in combat.. that "Effect" from a trap (whatever) is not a combat, even though it might be a challenge...

Hence you're not falt-footed in the normal sence, and should have no problem activating the ability...

See it like this:
DM: "Theres a puzzle on the wall, What do you do?"
Players: "Nothing yet, haven't rolled initiative, we're all flat-footed"

Abit Lame ey?

 

[ThirdWizard]

If you want, you could roll initiative for the trap (with a 0 or - modifier?). If he beats the init, he can then use the ability. That would have the added effect of putting reaction time in there. I'm not sure how exactly that fits into a pit trap with feather fall, though. Sometimes you just... fall sooner? Yeah. <_<;;

But, yeah, I've always said that if it isn't combat, go ahead and use whatever.

 

[Nifft]

Trap: Defended against via Search. Not a combat; use whatever you want.

Ambush: Defended against via Spot. Roll Initiative; act in order.

They seem fairly distinct in terms of resolution mechanism. If you had both (e.g. kobolds manually triggering a trap when they see you), I'd rule it as a combat, since the kobolds could try to time the activation such that you were distracted, or whatever.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Nail]

They seem fairly distinct in terms of resolution mechanism. If you had both (e.g. kobolds manually triggering a trap when they see you), I'd rule it as a combat, since the kobolds could try to time the activation such that you were distracted, or whatever.

So....

• You can use Immediate Actions outside of combat.
  
• You can use Immediate Actions inside combat.
  
• You can't use Immediate Actions at the beginning of combat, until your turn.

?????

How about this:

• You retain your Dex bonus to AC outside of combat.
  
• You retain your Dex bonus to AC inside of combat.
  
• You lose your Dex bonus at the beginning of combat, until your turn.

That doesn't make sense, nor is it supported in the rules, methinks. You are effectively flat-footed outside of combat.

 

[blargney the second]

By default you're flatfooted against traps, so you can't use immediate actions.

Feather fall isn't an immediate action, btw. It's a free action that you can use anytime.

 

[IanB]

My reading is that flat-footedness only applies during actual combat, and not vs. traps.

Check it out:

At 3rd level, a rogue gains an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps, giving her a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses rise to +2 when the rogue reaches 6th level, to +3 when she reaches 9th level, to +4 when she reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level.

A dodge bonus improves Armor Class (and sometimes Reflex saves) resulting from physical skill at avoiding blows and other ill effects. Dodge bonuses are never granted by spells or magic items. Any situation or effect (except wearing armor) that negates a character's Dexterity bonus also negates any dodge bonuses the character may have. Dodge bonuses stack with all other bonuses to AC, even other dodge bonuses. Dodge bonuses apply against touch attacks.

So, if your argument is that everyone is always flat-footed outside of combat, rogues can never apply their trap sense bonus to AC. It is a dodge bonus, and thus lost when they lose their Dex bonus, and thus lost when flat-footed.

 

[Nifft]

How about this:

• You retain your Dex bonus to AC outside of combat.
• You retain your Dex bonus to AC inside of combat.
• You lose your Dex bonus at the beginning of combat, until your turn.

That doesn't make sense, nor is it supported in the rules, methinks. You are effectively flat-footed outside of combat.

Looks accurate to me.

Traps don't attack your flat-footed AC -- they attack your AC. You're not flat-footed against a trap. At least, not so far as I can tell, after re-reading the traps section of the SRD.

Cheers, -- N