Immediate Actions *can't* be used when flat-footed?

[Deset Gled]

Funny, it tells me exactly the opposite. It only references acting during combat.

Close. It references not acting during combat. A character who just rolled initiative and is waiting for others to act has not yet acted in combat. He is flat-footed. Just prior to that, during the surprise round and before the character rolled initiative, he has also not yet acted in combat, and is flat-footed. Two hours earlier, when the character was eating breakfast, he had not yet acted in combat. By the bolded text, that makes him flat-footed.

I don't see anything to support the idea you CAN't take immediate actions. Flatfooted means its not your term, but immediate actions can be taken when its not your turn. Hence, you just do it.

I believe the text of Immediate Actions specifically says you can't take them while flat-footed.

 

[Hypersmurf]

A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed...

At the moment, this is being read in two ways.

One way is synonymous with "During a combat, a character who has not yet acted is flat-footed". The other way is not; it might be expressed as "A character who has not yet [acted during a combat] is flat-footed".

Either can be valid, grammatically. Of course, if we take the second, then since there's nothing to indicate when one becomes flat-footed again, it would seem that after I run into my first kobold, I am no longer a character who has not yet [acted during a combat], and am therefore no longer flat-footed for the rest of my career as an adventurer (save when balancing, of course).

-Hyp.

 

[Caliban]

Close. It references not acting during combat. A character who just rolled initiative and is waiting for others to act has not yet acted in combat. He is flat-footed. Just prior to that, during the surprise round and before the character rolled initiative, he has also not yet acted in combat, and is flat-footed. Two hours earlier, when the character was eating breakfast, he had not yet acted in combat. By the bolded text, that makes him flat-footed.

I understood what you said the first time. I just read it a bit differently.

Restating your entire arguement again isn't going to change that.

 

[Christian]

At the moment, this is being read in two ways.

One way is synonymous with "During a combat, a character who has not yet acted is flat-footed". The other way is not; it might be expressed as "A character who has not yet [acted during a combat] is flat-footed".

Either can be valid, grammatically. Of course, if we take the second, then since there's nothing to indicate when one becomes flat-footed again, it would seem that after I run into my first kobold, I am no longer a character who has not yet [acted during a combat], and am therefore no longer flat-footed for the rest of my career as an adventurer (save when balancing, of course).

I think I love you, Hypersmurf.

 

[Jarrod]

This question came up in our game last week - we had encountered an illusion outside of combat, and the warblade was wondering if he could use MoPM to help in the will save to see through it.

Short answer: the designers didn't think about it. It's right up there with the Swordsage teleporting every other round, the Crusader healing via a punching bag... right.

Long answer: to me, the reason you are flat-footed at the start of combat is that you haven't had time to react yet - it's the split second between "Oh crap" and throwing down. So an instantaneous effect that the character is not aware of will occur before they can use immediate actions - to draw a _very_ rough parallel, it's the equivalent of the surprise round. If a wizard fell into a magic pit that caused them to hit bottom instantly, then they would not get to Feather Fall. However, most pits are not instantaneous - and there's the difference.

To summarize: Instantaneous out-of-combat effect? No immediate action. Non-instantaneous out-of-combat effect? Immediate action.

 

[blargney the second]

Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.

That's not actually true. PHB p229 spells it out.

 

[Hypersmurf]

That's not actually true. PHB p229 spells it out.

Well, it depends. Once you've introduced immediate actions into your game, passages like this one in Spell Compendium have some authority:

Immediate Action: Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time -- even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action (instead of a free action, as stated in the spell description in the Player's Handbook), since the spell can be cast at any time.

Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn. You also cannot use an immediate action if you are currently flat-footed.

That's what Artoomis was quoting above.

If you aren't using immediate actions, Feather Fall isn't an immediate action, and can be cast while flat-footed. But if you are using immediate actions, Feather Fall is one, and can't.

-Hyp.

 

[Nifft]

^ Right, but even the less-charitable interpretation has no set expiration. Once you've been in combat ever, you are not flat-footed (until your next combat starts).

Being Helpless in the previous round doesn't render you flat-footed in the current round, so sleep and similar won't cause you to lose your "not-flat-footed" state. Only starting combat will do that, and then only until you've acted.

The end of combat has no "resume-flat-footed" triggering condition.

Cheers, -- N

 

[UnsocialEntity]

Listen to the Smurf, for he is wise.

 

[Nail]

The end of combat has no "resume-flat-footed" triggering condition.

Right. It's not at all clear when "flat-footedness" starts, except when dealing with combat......and really, there wouldn't be any issues at all, if we didn't have immediate actions tell us they can't be used when flat-footed.

What would the balance issues be if I deleted that limitation from the game? That is: "Immediate Actions *can* be used when flat-footed?" As I see it, such a deletion would mean that anyone with Immediate actions (a spell, a martial adept manuever, etc) would be immune to being flat-footed, as they would use their immediate actions to act, and thus remove the flat-footed condition. (Interestingly, the same trick could apply to free actions when flat-footed!)

So the (house) rule would have to be: "You can use immediate (or free!) actions when flat-footed, but doing so does not remove the flat-footed condition."

.....That seems rather cumbersome. Thoughts?