Immediate Actions *can't* be used when flat-footed?

[Nail]

Feather Fall: The new remove flat-footed spell!

 

[Jarrod]

That makes immediate actions capital-M Mighty.

Take an immediate action Teleport - you will never get hit in melee. Period. You're caught off-guard by the rogue, you teleport away. Poof.

It also makes no sense. Flat-footed is the mechanism the game mechanics use to model you not being able to react to an action (either unaware, or moving too slowly). If you allow immediate actions to work while flat-footed, the characters are effectively prescient.

 

[Someone]

From now on my traps will also do the usual effects and also summon a fiendish chicken to attack the party. That way I can make sure they're flat-footed, since they are in combat.

 

[shmoo2]

If you aren't using immediate actions, Feather Fall isn't an immediate action, and can be cast while flat-footed. But if you are using immediate actions, Feather Fall is one, and can't.

So if a wizard falls into a covered pit trap out of combat he can cast Feather Fall as an immediate action.

If the wizard is bull rushed into the pit before his initiative in round 1 of combat, he is flat-footed and can't cast Feather Fall.

??

 

[Caliban]

So if a wizard falls into a covered pit trap out of combat he can cast Feather Fall as an immediate action.

If the wizard is bull rushed into the pit before his initiative in round 1 of combat, he is flat-footed and can't cast Feather Fall.

??

Yup. I house-ruled that the intent of the spell outweights the wording of the new swift/immediate action rules.

 

[Christian]

If the wizard is bull rushed into the pit before his initiative in round 1 of combat, he is flat-footed and can't cast Feather Fall.

??

Sure he can--just not until his action. Fortunately, he doesn't start falling until his action comes up (see the rules for multi-round long jumps), so there's no problem ...

 

[Hypersmurf]

Sure he can--just not until his action. Fortunately, he doesn't start falling until his action comes up (see the rules for multi-round long jumps), so there's no problem ...

He didn't jump, though.

-Hyp.

 

[hong]

Right. It's not at all clear when "flat-footedness" starts, except when dealing with combat......and really, there wouldn't be any issues at all, if we didn't have immediate actions tell us they can't be used when flat-footed.

What would the balance issues be if I deleted that limitation from the game? That is: "Immediate Actions *can* be used when flat-footed?" As I see it, such a deletion would mean that anyone with Immediate actions (a spell, a martial adept manuever, etc) would be immune to being flat-footed, as they would use their immediate actions to act, and thus remove the flat-footed condition. (Interestingly, the same trick could apply to free actions when flat-footed!)

So the (house) rule would have to be: "You can use immediate (or free!) actions when flat-footed, but doing so does not remove the flat-footed condition."

.....That seems rather cumbersome. Thoughts?

I think that if you are having this much trouble coping with moment of perfect mind, you should just ban it. Saves an awful lot of faffing around.

 

[irdeggman]

In regards to falling (from a trap).

Looking at the rules for "surprise" and "traps".

In a surpise round someone (or something - like the trap) can take a move or standard action).

The trap going off is either a standard or move action (depends on what you end up with) - most are attack rolls or saving throws so they would be a standard action.

That is "setting it off".

For a pit trap the character has to fall. Falling is actually a move action - or actually involves movement. When that movement occurs is a matter of interpretation. But it is entirely reasonable to handle it on the falling character's turn in the initiative.

So surprise round - trap goes off, everyone roll initiative.

On the falling character's turn he "falls". Sage put out that base on accelaration of gravity it would be reasonable to use 500 ft in first round and 1200 ft in each subsequent round.

Well since the character is falling on his turn he is no longer flat-footed and can use immediate actions.

That is how I see it and it seems to follow the rules fairly well.

As far as the OP - IMO the character is "screwed". He is flat-footed since the trap executes its "attack" and the result is that the PC is now "flat-footed".

And technically yes a character is considered "flat-footed" when outside of combat. But that shouldn't really matter all that much if one looks at traps as if they were opposing "characters" and breaks down their "actions" accordingly.

 

[funmasta]

i suggest house ruling this:
falling down takes at least a very short period fo time
a spell that is just finished is NOW - and not a millisecond later - so there is no time to set an immediate action between now and the spell
in case of feather fall there is a little bit of time to cast featherfall before he touches the floor