Immediate Actions *can't* be used when flat-footed?

[Nifft]

Or you rule traps and their consequences follow the rules of actions that a character does and that, in the case of falling, a character falls on his turn - not continuously.

Ruling it this way makes feather fall work just fine as an immediate action.

Ruling it that way makes feather fall work just fine as a standard action. Or you could just use fly. If you don't fall until your turn, you would have all your actions available, no?

-- N

PS: And AoOs become really, really annoying if they don't resolve immediately.

 

[irdeggman]

Ruling it that way makes feather fall work just fine as a standard action. Or you could just use fly. If you don't fall until your turn, you would have all your actions available, no?

You should (have all of your actions barring some other limiting factor being in place) if it would help.

An immediate action cast on your turn is the same as swift action and won't draw AoO - which casting a standard action spell would.

And that (making it a standard action spell) would work for a pit trap - but what if you got knocked off of your flying mount after you'd taken your turn?

A standard action feather fall wouldn't help - an immediate action one would, and still be applicable in the aforementioned trap situation.

 

[Wish]

All you folks in the "flat-footed outside combat" camp, please answer this:

In a game that's using immediate actions* can a wizard walk up up to a cliff, look it over, think about it for a minute, and cast feather fall to get to the bottom unharmed without first asking his companions to attack him? Note that this is not an "unexpected fall" so you can't use that cop-out to get around answering the question.

*I have to specify this, because otherwise somebody will insist on using only the PHB text despite the entirety of the thread being devoted to non-PHB rules.

 

[Deset Gled]

All you folks in the "flat-footed outside combat" camp, please answer this:

In a game that's using immediate actions* can a wizard walk up up to a cliff, look it over, think about it for a minute, and cast feather fall to get to the bottom unharmed without first asking his companions to attack him? Note that this is not an "unexpected fall" so you can't use that cop-out to get around answering the question.

Well, I'm more in the "It's ambiguous" camp, but...

In cases where initiative is never rolled against a pit or trap, one way to run the game is to assume that initiative could be rolled in the situation normally, but isn't because the outcome is pre-destined. From there, you can run flat-footedness based on how things would have gone if initiative was actually rolled. For example, in the case of the trap vs. an unexpecting PC, if initiative were rolled, the trap would always have a surprise round against the PC. The PC would be flat-footed in the surprise round, and would only be un-flat-footed after the trap had gone off. In the example you give, the PC would be falling off of the cliff on their own turn, and (if initiative had been rolled) would not be flat-footed since it is their action.

 

[SadisticFishing]

Well, you can take Swift Actions while flat-footed (oddly enough), so you could just take the Immediate one on your own turn as a swift one...

But also, of course you're flat-footed outside of combat, that's what "flat-footed" means - you're not in combat yet.

 

[Christian]

Christian, I cant show you that because you're not wrong. When you're not in combat, you're not in combat.

Alls I'm saying is that when you're not in combat, I believe your AC is you're flat footed AC -- because outside of combat you're flat-footed. Acting in combat, reacting to the dangerous situation you find yourself in, is what brings about your full AC therby removing your flat-footedness.

But you're acting like it's obvious that this is the rule, when it's not. As we're reading the text, it states that in combat, before your first action, you are flat-footed. It does not, on this reading, say anything about having a flat-footed status outside of combat. And personally, one of the main reasons I find this reading compelling is that there are so many ad hoc rulings that would need to be made otherwise, at least some of which would have been included in the rules had this been the way it was intended to work. If the flat-footed condition begins only when an actual combat starts, then none of these situational discussions need to be made. It may seem weird, but it's so much easier to adjudicate, I wouldn't think of playing it any other way.

 

[irdeggman]

All you folks in the "flat-footed outside combat" camp, please answer this:

In a game that's using immediate actions* can a wizard walk up up to a cliff, look it over, think about it for a minute, and cast feather fall to get to the bottom unharmed without first asking his companions to attack him? Note that this is not an "unexpected fall" so you can't use that cop-out to get around answering the question.

*I have to specify this, because otherwise somebody will insist on using only the PHB text despite the entirety of the thread being devoted to non-PHB rules.

Good question.

Feather fall works only upon free-falling objects. It does not affect a sword blow or a charging or flying creature

So a wizard can't cast it until he is falling in the first place. I would treat the fall as the start of a combat round (similar to the trap issue).


Here is a better one for those in the "not flat-footed when walking around camp.

Why would you be suddenly flat-footed at the start of combat when you weren't a mere instant before?

Not counting surprise, you are still considered flat-footed until your first action of the combat round.

And another one:

How can you cast feather fall outside of combat since it has a duration of "until landing or 1 rd/level" Using the 1 rd/level as the absolute duration (IMO).

 

[Deset Gled]

Well, you can take Swift Actions while flat-footed (oddly enough), so you could just take the Immediate one on your own turn as a swift one...

This is wrong. By the rules, you cannot turn an Immediate action into a Swift one (nor can you cast a Swift action spell as a Standard action). If you are flat-footed but can still take actions (for example, if you are balancing), there is no way to cast an Immediate action spell, despite the fact that you could cast a Standard action spell.

 

[irdeggman]

This is wrong. By the rules, you cannot turn an Immediate action into a Swift one (nor can you cast a Swift action spell as a Standard action). If you are flat-footed but can still take actions (for example, if you are balancing), there is no way to cast an Immediate action spell, despite the fact that you could cast a Standard action spell.

pg 86 of COmplete Arcane

"Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn."

So I believe you are mistaken about turning an immediate action into a swift action.

 

[SadisticFishing]

This is wrong. By the rules, you cannot turn an Immediate action into a Swift one (nor can you cast a Swift action spell as a Standard action). If you are flat-footed but can still take actions (for example, if you are balancing), there is no way to cast an Immediate action spell, despite the fact that you could cast a Standard action spell.

No, using swift actions as standards is different from immediate as swift, because using an immediate action counts as your swift action for the turn, wouldn't using an immediate action count as your swift action?