Immersion, Threat or Menace?

[TonyLB]

If I immersed myself in my character's motivations, and wanted the things he wanted, then how could I deliberately and heartlessly screw him over for my own entertainment?

I like guys who make huge, consequential, screechingly obvious mistakes. Characters who snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Not all the time, of course (that's just silly) but enough to season their successes.

It's entirely possible, though, that people who wholly immerse in their characters can get the same effect. I'd sure be delighted to hear how they do it, if so, because the technique has eluded me.

 

[S'mon]

I doubt many people put too much emphasis on stuff like "getting a room at a tavern" and "doing your taxes."

But, "dueling your mortal enemy" or "begging for your lost love's life" or "negotiating a cease-fire" requires a lil' bit of immersion to be truly enjoyable.

That's my position and the reason I encourage in-character play for important events _and_ a degree of immersion - it makes the game much more dramatic and thus far more enjoyable for me.

 

[S'mon]

FWIW - as a player I tend to heavily immerse in the character and strongly identify with him/her. I feel their pain. Playing Midnight, this could get pretty painful... I can't really see much point playing & not identifying with the PC. As GM, I don't usually identify with or immerse in the NPCs; that's not the GM's role. I do enjoy playing them, but not in any 'method acting' sense. That said I may identify with aspects of an NPC - the hobgoblin soldier still loyal to a dead empire, the machiavellian aristocrat doing what he must for the "greater good", etc. I don't want to feel the pain of every orc the PCs slaughter, though.

 

[S'mon]

It's entirely possible, though, that people who wholly immerse in their characters can get the same effect. I'd sure be delighted to hear how they do it, if so, because the technique has eluded me.

I'm surprised so many people seem to think "immersive play" must involve your PC acting selfishly for their own benefit. I find the opposite - it's the players who treat their PCs as playing pieces who do whatever it takes to have their PC succeed & get the XP & GP. It's the players who identify with their PCs most strongly who have them sacrifice their lives for the greater good, or otherwise do the kinds of altruistic things that people often do IRL but which are not rewarded by the game system.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

I don't consider immersion a "bad" mode of play in any way, but it's just devoid of attraction for me. I don't want to pretend I'm someone else - I can get right into roleplaying as deep as anyone, but I never identify myself with my PC.

The extent to which I dislike immersive roleplaying is simply the extent to which some ignorant players decree that only immersive roleplaying is "real roleplaying".

 

[mhacdebhandia]

A character probably wants to save the village, get some money, survive the zombie apocalypse, whatever. A player wants to get an interesting story out of the game, which can (and often does) mean sacrificing the self-interest of the character.

I'll go further - even when you don't sacrifice the self-interest of the character, I as a player am perfectly content to see terrible, awful things happen to a PC I'm playing, because that makes for an interesting story. It seems to me that immersive players tend to be possessive of their PCs and want to see them succeed - as a non-immersive player, I want to see if my character can succeed and see what kind of story we get out of it.

That's where the fun is for me - I'm not saying I choose not to immerse so as to preserve this distance, since for me it's not a choice, but it does explain why I enjoy roleplaying despite lacking identification with my characters.

 

[Hussar]

I don't consider immersion a "bad" mode of play in any way, but it's just devoid of attraction for me. I don't want to pretend I'm someone else - I can get right into roleplaying as deep as anyone, but I never identify myself with my PC.

The extent to which I dislike immersive roleplaying is simply the extent to which some ignorant players decree that only immersive roleplaying is "real roleplaying". (bold mine)

Now that's an opinion I can get behind 100%. The "role play" purists really fly up my left nostril.

As a question though, can you not be immersive and focused on mechanics at the same time? For example, a player is playing a rogue. He makes absolutely certain to build his character around the sneak attack - taking the right feats, maxing out hide, investing in this or that magic trinket to make his sneak attack that much better, whatever - while at the same time using in game elements to justify his choices. He spends a great deal of time shadowing important people for fun, just to make sure he can sneak with the best of them, he gathers information and talks to this or that person to find someone who he can bribe/blackmail/cajole into making him that ring of blinking, and so on.

Why is immersive play and being a wargamer seen as mutually exclusive. I find that my best role players are my wargamers frequently.

 

[tetsujin28]

What is it about immersion you dislike?

Because I hate poncy pseudo acting. That, and I'm an old fart grognard.

 

[TonyLB]

I'm surprised so many people seem to think "immersive play" must involve your PC acting selfishly for their own benefit. I find the opposite - it's the players who treat their PCs as playing pieces who do whatever it takes to have their PC succeed & get the XP & GP. It's the players who identify with their PCs most strongly who have them sacrifice their lives for the greater good, or otherwise do the kinds of altruistic things that people often do IRL but which are not rewarded by the game system.

Sure, I wasn't saying that you couldn't get that.

I'm talking about the stupid, pointless things that people do and immediately regret. "Kick-yourself" moments, where you act contrary to your own interests for no good reason. They're great story fodder.

 

[Umbran]

Why is immersive play and being a wargamer seen as mutually exclusive. I find that my best role players are my wargamers frequently.

Sometimes, when you read a book, or watch a really good TV show, don't you tend to forget the world around you? Don't you occasionally end up paying so much attention to the story that you lose track of time, and maybe you stop being actively aware that you're at home on your couch? If you thought about it, of course you'd know, but you stop thinking about things outside the book. That is deep immersion. If the cat keeps yanking at the tassle on the bookmark, you become aware of the outside world, and are no longer immersed.

In a game as complex as D&D, the problem is reference to the rules - wargamers have to do it constantly. But breaking character and breaking suspension of disbelief are the banes of immersive play - and each time you have to discuss a rule, or pick up a book to flip thorugh it to find information, you whack the gamer over the head with the fact that they are playing a game, and eventually the player is no longer immersed.