Immortal's Handbook continuation thread continuation

[Clay_More]

Ahhh, here was my response
Didnt notice da new thread....

 

[Eldorian]

Originally posted by -Eä-
1. There are far more ways to increase the DC of a spell than to increase the saves. Granted: You could get Divine Grace and multiclass like hell, but compared to spell power, ability bonuses (not only from items, but also temporary bonuses and the inherent bonuses), the means through which you may get bonuses to your saving throws are limited.

But, as UK said, ability scores go both ways. As for prestige classes, most people consider the red wizard and the arcmage to be overpowered, at least that's what the thread over in Rules forum concluded. They had good arguements, with several instances of playtesting. It was mostly spell power ability that made them overpowered.

I must say I have had the same experience as Anubis when it comes to game experience: characters often rely on that cloak to survive. Not that this is an argument for having a low cost, but increasing the cost by a factor of three will certainly raise the mortality rate in a lot of campaigns. In one of the two capaings in which I am playing, the mortality rate is quite high as it is, and it would increase by a factor of 2.3 by increasing the cost of the cloak of resistance by a factor of 3. If this is a measure of anything, perhaps the efficiency of save or die or equivalent spells.

While I'll admit that with the current system, and the cloak of resistance being the only source of saves, other than abilities which go both ways, the cloak is the only way you survive. But it's not the spell DCs that the cloak protects you against, at least, not in the games I've played in. It's more likely that it's supernatural abilites that have the harder saves, like gaze, frightful presence, and breath weapons. I advocate a simply doubling of cloak price, and the inclusion of other magic items that boost saves, similiar to how AC has deflection, natural, and enhancement bonuses.

If magic spells had a single item that boosted their save DCs, that cost twice as much as the weapon enhancements, and saves had 3 items that increased save DCs, which cost twice as much as AC items, then the system would be more balanced. As is, it's rather hard to get a spell off that allows a save for negation at higher levels, without a PrC or heavy investing into greater spell penetration.

For example, my epic level 23 cleric, with a 32 wisdom, had a success rate on spells with saves of about 1 in 8 tonight. That wisdom is with a +5 inherint bonus, a +6 inhancement bonus, starting value of 18, and 3 points from leveling. The other 2 went to Cha, for turning (planar turning is AWESOME =).

Btw, epic was pretty fun. First time tonight.

3. Spell Resistance is FAR superior to saving throw when it comes to dealing with spells. Take the examples of Enervation, Harm, the two most lethal examples I can come up with: Saves won't mean anything, SR would stop it.
Additionally, SR blocks many spells that don't have save, while vice a versa this is not true. Enervation is on that basis one of the most powerful spells in the PHB in my opinion.
Eldorian's example of a cleric withstanding most things with only saves and spells is flawed, and this is mainly because the cleric has access to the spell "Spell Resistance" (which is INSANELY powerful for its level combined with Prayer Beads: Karma.)

I dunno... my epic level cleric only lost a spell to SR only about one in two chances, as he had a roughly 50% chance to succeed, but he lost to saves about 7 in 8, cause he had basically a 1 in 8 chance to succeed. And the SR doesn't help at all against any supernatural attacks, which I keep repeating and repeating.. Don't you people fight things with supernatural attacks? Our party all had spell resistance from the spell of the same name (or from being a monk, for one guy), but it only came into play 3 times (succeeding once), however we made many saves against supernatural attacks, and trample attempts, etc. This is typical of our game, we hardly ever fight enemy spell casters, and very often fight monsters with supernatural attacks.

Oh, and Anubis? Adapts are pretty powerful little guys, I know. Some cleric casting, some wizard casting. I was thinking of playing an adapt with levels in the PrC Hexer, from masters of the wild. Only problem is that his max spell level is only 6, and at epic levels, that makes you not much of a spell caster.

Now, I'll admit that the save feats are pretty weak, but as Ea suggested, I believe it is because of the cheapness of the cloak. However, that said, I believe that dodge is perhaps the weakest combat feat. However, many people have it for mobility and spring attack (and whirlwind). Perhaps if they were made into decent gateway feats, they would work fine as is.


More later, it's late. I'm only posting because I'm still coming down from the high that is gaming.

Eldorian Antar

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

ALERT!

UK, WE HAVE SEVERELY UNDERESTIMATED THE POWER OF NPC CLASSES!

...we!?

I just played out a combat in my campaign with six Level 20 Human Adepts with ability scores 10/10/10/10/18/10 again a Vashar Wizard12 (11/15/13/20/15/11), a Vashar/Vampire Fighter7 (18/22/--/17/16/16), a Half-Dragon (Black)/Vashar Rogue9 (22/21/16/18/10/14), and a Half-Human/Half-Vashar Bard 12 (14/16/12/16/9/20) . . . The adepts even had only 5000 gp woth of wealth here, and the PCs are some of the smartest gamers around and had full wealth plus some, and according to the numbers we've come up with, this should have been a very easy battle for them. That is not the case . . . THEY WERE PULVERIZED TOTALLY!

I am officially changing my stance on the NPC classes to just below the WotC rating but far above the ratings given here. That is all.

Lets take a look:

NPCs

Six Adepts: 20 x 0.4 = 8 (Levels), +1.2 (Wealth), +0.8 (Ability Scores).

Total CR 10 = EL 14
+5 (6 of them) = Final Enemy EL 19.

PCs

a Vashar Wizard12 (11/15/13/20/15/11), = CR 15
a Vashar/Vampire Fighter7 (18/22/--/17/16/16) = CR 17
a Half-Dragon (Black)/Vashar Rogue9 (22/21/16/18/10/14) = CR 16
a Half-Human/Half-Vashar Bard 12 (14/16/12/16/9/20) = CR 15

Party CR = PCR 16

PCR 16 = PEL 17

Therefore the party are fighting a Difficult Encounter, though they probably should have just shaded it. It wasn't quite 50/50, but almost.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

I advocate bumping the feats up to +4 and keeping the Cloak of Resistance the same.

Don't you mean +3?

 

[Anubis]

Hi Anubis mate!



Don't you mean +3?

No, I mean +4. Anything that grants to all is more valuable than anything that grants to one. Therefore, you can get a single +4, or you can give up one of those to get a bonus to all three saves.

That's the same as what I advocate with Skill Focus giving +5 and those weird feats like Alertness still giving +2 to 2 skills.

You give up a little bit for diversity.

 

[Anubis]

Therefore the party are fighting a Difficult Encounter, though they probably should have just shaded it. It wasn't quite 50/50, but almost.

That's what I'm saying. The party had NO CHANCE. They got trounced EASILY. It was like a hill giant agianst a Level 3 party or something. I posted how the fight went over at the other thread.

I don't like things being divided up like this, it's aggravating keeping track of two threads that cover mainlt the same material.

Anyway, between Plymorph Other, Lightning Bolt, Polymorph Self, and Stoneskin, the party got trounced badly. Heck, they had no way to bypass the DR of the Stoneskin, and the Adepts were able to deal out loads of damage by turning into Fire Giants and wielding their dinky +1 weapons effectively against the Vampire.

What makes it even more insane is that I rate those Templates LESS then you do, which means they had more levels and stuff (I was going for a Level 12 party, and I place Vampire at +5, Half-Dragon at +3), so they should have been, by your system, FAR more powerful than I originally intended.

To be honest, I think thisbit of playtesting goes a long way to showing that you overestimated the power of at least the Vampire Template and that you severely overestimate the ability scores.

Any which way, the thing is, if you ALREADY judged Adepts that high, then you need to tone down the other stuff, because the party in question had about a snowball's chance in Hell at winning this battle.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

That's what I'm saying. The party had NO CHANCE. They got trounced EASILY. It was like a hill giant agianst a Level 3 party or something.

Just seems like a bad tactics and a bit of bad luck on your part.

I posted how the fight went over at the other thread.

Yes I saw that.

I don't like things being divided up like this, it's aggravating keeping track of two threads that cover mainlt the same material.

I already chastised Eldorian for his rash behaviour.

Anyway, between Plymorph Other, Lightning Bolt, Polymorph Self, and Stoneskin, the party got trounced badly. Heck, they had no way to bypass the DR of the Stoneskin, and the Adepts were able to deal out loads of damage by turning into Fire Giants and wielding their dinky +1 weapons effectively against the Vampire.

First, your party should have likely won initiative.

But they seem to have done nothing of consequence in the first round!

In fact the whole escapade seems like a lot of bungling on your parties part.

I mean a single Globe of Invulnerability (especially) or even Anti-magic Field would have worked wonders! They can't have had much more than 70 hit points each, so obviously damaging spells like Chain Lightning would be better than risking all or nothing on save allowing effects.

What makes it even more insane is that I rate those Templates LESS then you do, which means they had more levels and stuff (I was going for a Level 12 party, and I place Vampire at +5, Half-Dragon at +3), so they should have been, by your system, FAR more powerful than I originally intended.

The encounter was close to 50/50, but not quite.

The PCR worked out at 15.75 (which was round up). But the difference would still be no more than EL +3.

Remember EL +4 is 50/50.

To be honest, I think this bit of playtesting goes a long way to showing that you overestimated the power of at least the Vampire Template and that you severely overestimate the ability scores.

Not really, it looks pretty spot on.

Even if I hadn't factored the Vampire Template at all the PEL would still have only been one less.

Any which way, the thing is, if you ALREADY judged Adepts that high, then you need to tone down the other stuff, because the party in question had about a snowball's chance in Hell at winning this battle.

There is no way your party should have been at less than a 60/40 chance.

 

[Anubis]

I mean a single Globe of Invulnerability (especially) or even Anti-magic Field would have worked wonders! They can't have had much more than 70 hit points each, so obviously damaging spells like Chain Lightning would be better than risking all or nothing on save allowing effects.

I don't believe the party had access to any of those spells. The Wizard has a lot of really nasty spells memorized, but only a couple mass damage spells. The Wizard is more a utility/save or die Wizard than anything else. Bards of course have no real good offensive spells.

The Adepts had 70 each, which was far to many for the PCs to drop in a single round.

Also, this was supposed to be a simpler encounter, the first of the adventure and NOT a major battle. Neither them nor I saw the devastation coming.

The encounter was close to 50/50, but not quite.

The PCR worked out at 15.75 (which was round up). But the difference would still be no more than EL +3.

Remember EL +4 is 50/50.

Not really, it looks pretty spot on.

Even if I hadn't factored the Vampire Template at all the PEL would still have only been one less.

Like I said, I advocate +5. Most of the time, all the calculations in the world can't accurately determine the ACTUAL CR of something. You gotta judge it by eye and through playtesting, using the calculations as guidelines rather than rules.

There is no way your party should have been at less than a 60/40 chance.

The point is this encounter was designed to be one the party could defeat without much trouble.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

I don't believe the party had access to any of those spells. The Wizard has a lot of really nasty spells memorized, but only a couple mass damage spells. The Wizard is more a utility/save or die Wizard than anything else.

He had all the spells except the ones that actually would have made a difference!

What about scrolls!?

Bards of course have no real good offensive spells.

The bard player should know the characters strengths and weaknesses by now.

The Adepts had 70 each, which was far to many for the PCs to drop in a single round.

Where theres a will theres a way.

Also, this was supposed to be a simpler encounter, the first of the adventure and NOT a major battle. Neither them nor I saw the devastation coming.

So it seems.

Like I said, I advocate +5. Most of the time, all the calculations in the world can't accurately determine the ACTUAL CR of something.

No but they can judge the relative Challenge Rating and Encounter Level.

You gotta judge it by eye and through playtesting, using the calculations as guidelines rather than rules.

Thats what I have done.

The point is this encounter was designed to be one the party could defeat without much trouble.

Well then you made a bit of a mess of it didn't you!

I mean under my auspices it was a difficult encounter, not far off 50/50, yet you advocate rating the PCs weaker than they were. So by all accounts how could you not rate it as an even more difficult encounter than me!?

 

[Anubis]

I mean under my auspices it was a difficult encounter, not far off 50/50, yet you advocate rating the PCs weaker than they were. So by all accounts how could you not rate it as an even more difficult encounter than me!?

First off, I rated the party at a flat Level 12, as I am going by the core rules for CR and that for the moment, simply changing the CRs of things instead of changing the system. Second, I rated Adepts at 1/3, so I considered them CR 6 each. Even at CR 10, however, the EL should have only been 15, meaning you are right, *by those numbers*, it should have been close to a 50/50 battle. Like I said, that's not the result.

As for the Wizard, she is not a splat mage with all the damage spells, she's a utility/instant kill type. There are no clerics (the party is Vashar) and no splat mages.

By your system, however, a party consisting of four copies of the Vampire character should have had almost a 50/50 chance if not an even better chance, and I know for a fact that Vampire was unable to do ANYTHING. With Stomeskin, that decrease the hit damage by 10. Also, with Polymorph Self, the Adepts became Fire Giants and they all had +1 weaponry. The Vampires would have been defeated very quickly.

You can't COUNT on having access to splat spells and the such. That's not part of the CR equation, after all. The Wizard's tactics were not at fault in the least! I'm sure most everybody would agree with me that not all Wizards are fireball-toting splatfests of exploding fun. This one happens to be primarily a Necromancer, in fact. Thus, the party had no decent access to any major damage spells.

Yet your numbers suggest they still should have had a 50/50 chance. I say that's not the case. In fact, I would dare to say that Adepts might be something closer to Level*3/4 that Level*1/2 or Level*1/3. In fact, I would say Adepts are stronger than Warriors and are the strongest NPC class!