Immortal's Handbook continuation thread continuation

[Upper_Krust]

Hi all!

Incidently I was discussing some stuff with Anubis last night (on Messenger), one of which is a method to remove ability scores as a factor to PCs, which actually works.

However, an offshoot of that conversation is that I cross checked the wealth factor and it seems I have that wrong, which means that all the Hit Dice and Class Level factors are wrong. Luckily, I managed to sort them all out this morning, just don't take any of the previous posts on this matter as a given.

I should have the CR/EL appendix finished in a day at worst.

Anyway, back to Anubis suggestions.

The basic premise is that we remove ability scores for PCs and NPCs as a factor to CR. The impact of ability scores is really only significant at low level, where they are still wildly outweighed by chance.

The good side of this change (if I decide to instigate it) is that determining Character CR is pretty simple.

eg. A PC with PC equipment is +1 CR/Level

The bad side of the change is that we still use ability scores as a factor to Monster CR. Which means some monsters are now going to seem to be rated somewhat bizarrely.

eg. Pit Fiend CR 32 (16 difficult)

Technically this now means that the Pit Fiend is a moderate challenge for a 32nd-level party and a difficult challenge for a 16th-level party.

Whereas before (when we added ability scores to PC CRs) it was a moderate challenge for (approx.) 29th-level characters and a difficult challenge for (approx.) 14th-level characters. Which I felt was more accurate.

So while I know that the difference has minimal effect to EL, I can see people on the outside looking in thinking the CRs are somewhat inflated.

So in that respect I am still not sure which is for the best.

Any comments?

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

What a huge transition. You go to bed thinking, okay... earth is the 3rd planet in our solar system, the sun rises before it sets, and Upper Krust has a firm grasp on how attributes modify Challenge Ratings. Great, I can sleep now.

Then you wake up the next morning, and Upper Krust has dropped out of the universal equation! What happened!?

Okay, what was the first rule of the Hitchhikers Guide?

Right, don't panic.

Let me ask this in the mean time ... hopefully without soundly uninformed ... if you remove the way attributes modify Challenge Ratings for player characters, why not do the same for monsters and non-player characters?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

What a huge transition. You go to bed thinking, okay... earth is the 3rd planet in our solar system, the sun rises before it sets, and Upper Krust has a firm grasp on how attributes modify Challenge Ratings. Great, I can sleep now.

Then you wake up the next morning, and Upper Krust has dropped out of the universal equation! What happened!?

Okay, what was the first rule of the Hitchhikers Guide?

Right, don't panic.

Attributes still modify Challenge Ratings the same, the dilemma is whether or not we have to include them.

Let me ask this in the mean time ... hopefully without soundly uninformed ... if you remove the way attributes modify Challenge Ratings for player characters, why not do the same for monsters and non-player characters?

That is a possibility I am looking into (Incidently introducing this rule always meant NPC ability scores would no longer be rated).

I am considering Ability Scores as 'Factor 0'. That means if you want to add them you can, if you don't, you don't have to. Although its still the same rules as before.

Of course Ability Scores from things like Templates would still be factored. Also Size would have to be adjusted appropriately.

Incidently removing the ability scores of a Pit Fiend would seemingly make it about right, CR 28 (since we would have to bump up the Size mods.)

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Upper Krust, if your challenge rating system removes attributes from the equation, that should create more 1/4, 1/3, and 1/2 Challenge Ratings at low levels. I can't remember if your CR rules allow for fractioned CR values. Do they?

 

[Anubis]

Let me ask this in the mean time ... hopefully without soundly uninformed ... if you remove the way attributes modify Challenge Ratings for player characters, why not do the same for monsters and non-player characters?

Seeing as I am the one who brought this about, I can answer that.

It's NOT that ability scores aren't counted at all, it's the the "normal range" is not counted. That means all characters have a range of scores that do not change the rating.

Basically, to find how ability scores effect things . . . Okay, you know how if you play a monster class, how you determine the stats? It's how you get like Strength +10 for the ogre. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. Anyway, THOSE stats ARE counted.

Basically, it's like this:

Humans get no bonuses or penalties to their ability scores, so they therefore have no modifier due to ability scores.

Ogres get Str+10, Dex-2, Con+4, Int-4,Cha-4, which is a total of +4. This means the ogre gets a +0.4 modifier due to ability scores.

In other words, only the scores above and beyond or below the "average" gets factored in. What you "roll" does not. You determine the modifier for ability scores BEFORE making a character, not after. Basically, take the racial modifiers and those are what are counted.

I hope I explained this well enough.

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

It is... thank you Anubis, but I am still curious about my question.

This change in the way attributes are counted should still create more 1/4, 1/3, and 1/2 Challenge Ratings at low levels. Does the new CR system that Upper Krust is proposing account for fractioned Challenge Ratings?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again mate!

Upper Krust, if your challenge rating system removes attributes from the equation, that should create more 1/4, 1/3, and 1/2 Challenge Ratings at low levels. I can't remember if your CR rules allow for fractioned CR values. Do they?

If the CR rounds down to 0 its CR 1/2

If CR rounds to -1 its CR 1/4

If CR rounds to -2 its CR 1/8

etc.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

Seeing as I am the one who brought this about, I can answer that.

It's NOT that ability scores aren't counted at all, it's the the "normal range" is not counted. That means all characters have a range of scores that do not change the rating.

Basically, to find how ability scores effect things . . . Okay, you know how if you play a monster class, how you determine the stats? It's how you get like Strength +10 for the ogre. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. Anyway, THOSE stats ARE counted.

Basically, it's like this:

Humans get no bonuses or penalties to their ability scores, so they therefore have no modifier due to ability scores.

Ogres get Str+10, Dex-2, Con+4, Int-4,Cha-4, which is a total of +4. This means the ogre gets a +0.4 modifier due to ability scores.

In other words, only the scores above and beyond or below the "average" gets factored in. What you "roll" does not. You determine the modifier for ability scores BEFORE making a character, not after. Basically, take the racial modifiers and those are what are counted.

I hope I explained this well enough.

I don't think the above will work though. I think either you have to remove ability scores as a factor altogether or keep them in for everyone, which is the decision I have still to make.

 

[Eldorian]

Damn, and here I thought I would be able to let my PCs have thier high point buy system and be able to effectivly determine what a challege for the party would be. I beg of you, UK, to include stats as part of CR. That way even with 42 point buy and 28 point buys, the DM will know a proper challege. Also, if you factor in stats for say, and ogre, are you not going to factor in the effect of having the standard array of stats for elite npcs? Like those listed by level in the DMG. A human with straight 10s and a human with the standard array of 15 14 13 12 10 8 are two very different things.

Eldorian Antar

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Eldorian mate!

Damn, and here I thought I would be able to let my PCs have thier high point buy system and be able to effectivly determine what a challege for the party would be. I beg of you, UK, to include stats as part of CR. That way even with 42 point buy and 28 point buys, the DM will know a proper challege. Also, if you factor in stats for say, and ogre, are you not going to factor in the effect of having the standard array of stats for elite npcs? Like those listed by level in the DMG. A human with straight 10s and a human with the standard array of 15 14 13 12 10 8 are two very different things.

Like I said, it either has to be ability scores rated for all, or ability scores rated for none.

I would be interested in hearing everyones opinion on the matter.

Incidently I have already instigated the new HD modifiers:

PC classes +0.8/Level

PC class with NPC equipment +0.9/Level
PC class with PC equipment +1/Level

NPC classes +0.6/Level (Adept & Warrior)
+0.55/Level (Aristocrat & Expert)
+0.4/Level Commoner

Dragons +0.75/HD

Outsiders +0.7/HD

Magical Beast +6.5/HD

Monstrous Humanoid/Shapechanger/Undead (Intelligent) +0.6/HD

Aberration/Beast/Elemental/Giant/Humanoid +0.55

Animal/Construct/Fey/Ooze/Plant/Undead (Mindless)/Vermin +0.5/HD