Immortal's Handbook continuation thread continuation

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anabstercorian mate!

Look, Anubis, suck it up. Upper Krusts measured words and well presented evidence is kicking your rantings ass. He's won this argument by a mile. Cope.

Easy Tiger! We are all friend here.

Although I will admit that he may need to tweak the way he measures CR... Ability score 10/10/10/10/10/10 should have no modifier to CR at all.

They don't have any modifier in my system. You must have picked up on that wrong?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Clay_More mate!

Well, a little bit dry indeed. Anyone have some topless pictures they would like to post?

I could take my shirt off for a few snaps at Gencon UK.

Hey UK, dunno if you saw the messages in the Necromancy PDF post, seems I might have something to do in the future

I'll go check it out right now.

 

[Anubis]

Well then, if the question is more "Can we avoid counting them and still be accurate?", then that makes things even easier! The answer is YES! Like I said, playtest it. You have not presented one bit of evidence that counting the ability scores actually works during playtesting. You have given a lot of theory and no playtesting proof to back it up.

Just look at the Party Level. ABILITY SCORES SHOULD NOT BE COUNTED. First off, let's forget the "all 18s" argument for a moment and replace it with a far more likely scenario, shall we?

In one Level 1 party, we have a Wizard with Str8, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 15, Wis12, Cha 8. By your system, this character would be CR 2 (Level 1, Ability Scores +1). In another Level 1 party, we have a wizard with Str 12, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 15, Wis 14, Cha 12. By your system, this character would be CR 3 (Level 1, Ability Scores +2). Do you see the problem yet? Both characters, in terms of party usefulness, and pretty much IDENTICAL! The Strength doesn't matter because this Wizard shouldn't be in melee in either case, the Wisdom only gives +1 to the Wizard's best save, and the Charisma does NOTHING. Yet you would attest that the second Wizard deserves to be counted as if he were A WHOLE LEVEL HIGHER.

You can use these scores at ANY level, and counting #2 as a level higher than #1 only gets more ridiculous the further up in level you go!

Now go to any normal player and ask them if they would like to play on a Level 3 party with a Level 2 Wizard with 8/12/15/15/12/8 (which would make him CR 3 now) or if they would rather have a Level 1 Wizard with 12/12/15/15/14/12 (the original CR 3). You attest these characters would be equal, but I'm willing to bet that any player who is paying attention will pick Wizard #1 because the level is NOT worth a +4 to Strength, +2 to Wisdom, and +4 to Charisma. Do you see the problem now?

You are trying to count things that simply should not be counted! Charisma is USELESS to practically half of ALL the Core Classes! Intelligence is also a score people sacrifice in most cases. Dexterity is easy to sacrifice if one plans to wear Full Plate most of his or her career. The ONLY score that is ALWAYS useful is Constitution. I know this because I am also a player, not just a DM. I KNOW.

Look, I never said, at first, not to count scores at all. I said not to count the standard array, or yuor basic "rolls". I said you SHOULD count monster "racial ability score bonuses" such as the ogre's Strength +10, Dex -2, Con +4, Int -4, Cha -4. You said it had to be "all or nothing", though, and you're wrong. There is the gray area where you ONLY count things "above and beyond" the standard array. I don't see why you have a problem with doing so, to be honest.

How about the rest of you? Do you think it's "all or nothing" or do you think that we can NOT count standard array ability scores while counting any racial ability score modifiers as I attested? I only said "don't count them at all" because it CAN still work if you don't overrate everything else.

So how about it? I think I have clearly demonstrated the facts of the matter. You DON'T have to count "all or nothing". Just figure out racial ability modifiers and COUNT ONLY THOSE. Humans get none and have no modifier. Elves get +2/-2, so they have no modifier. Ogres have +10/-2/+4/-4/-4, and thus get +0.4 CR. Heck, if you do it this way, a monster's CR can actually be used AS ITS ECL as well! That means you NEVER have to calculate ability score modifiers more than once, and that time would be for the base creature only!

See what I'm saying? Stop going to extremes and count the stuff that matters. There is no reason to count ability scores for standard PCs! So to answer the question, "Can we avoid counting them and still be accurate?", I have shown the answer to be YES. Playtesting supports what I say. I should know, I've BEEN playtesting these theories, unlike everybody else here who just keeps throwing out numbers and formulas. The playtesting supports what I have said. The playtesting is what shows the truth, not some formula.

What say you?

 

[Anabstercorian]

Excellent, Anubis! Now you're debating with gas. You put forth an EXCELLENT example of your issue, which helps your point to no end! I'm eager to see Upper Krust's counterpoint.

 

[Dark Wolf 97]

....Dark Wolf rouses himself from his lair in the Abyss and marches to the Godspires to say.....

Now now Anabstwhatsit, no need to put down Anublis' opinions down, I think we best leave that to Upper Krust, and his opinions to Anubis. Personally I tend to stay out of the rambling aruments of old gooberistic men (omni-potent as they may be).

....trudges back to his lonely Abyssal lair....

 

[Anabstercorian]

Pish tosh! Meddling with gods is a proud tradition of mine. I'll stick my nose where I please.

 

[Eldorian]

Well then, if the question is more "Can we avoid counting them and still be accurate?", then that makes things even easier! The answer is YES! Like I said, playtest it. You have not presented one bit of evidence that counting the ability scores actually works during playtesting. You have given a lot of theory and no playtesting proof to back it up.

Just look at the Party Level. ABILITY SCORES SHOULD NOT BE COUNTED. First off, let's forget the "all 18s" argument for a moment and replace it with a far more likely scenario, shall we?

In one Level 1 party, we have a Wizard with Str8, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 15, Wis12, Cha 8. By your system, this character would be CR 2 (Level 1, Ability Scores +1). In another Level 1 party, we have a wizard with Str 12, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 15, Wis 14, Cha 12. By your system, this character would be CR 3 (Level 1, Ability Scores +2). Do you see the problem yet? Both characters, in terms of party usefulness, and pretty much IDENTICAL! The Strength doesn't matter because this Wizard shouldn't be in melee in either case, the Wisdom only gives +1 to the Wizard's best save, and the Charisma does NOTHING. Yet you would attest that the second Wizard deserves to be counted as if he were A WHOLE LEVEL HIGHER.

You can use these scores at ANY level, and counting #2 as a level higher than #1 only gets more ridiculous the further up in level you go!

Now go to any normal player and ask them if they would like to play on a Level 3 party with a Level 2 Wizard with 8/12/15/15/12/8 (which would make him CR 3 now) or if they would rather have a Level 1 Wizard with 12/12/15/15/14/12 (the original CR 3). You attest these characters would be equal, but I'm willing to bet that any player who is paying attention will pick Wizard #1 because the level is NOT worth a +4 to Strength, +2 to Wisdom, and +4 to Charisma. Do you see the problem now?

You are trying to count things that simply should not be counted! Charisma is USELESS to practically half of ALL the Core Classes! Intelligence is also a score people sacrifice in most cases. Dexterity is easy to sacrifice if one plans to wear Full Plate most of his or her career. The ONLY score that is ALWAYS useful is Constitution. I know this because I am also a player, not just a DM. I KNOW.

Look, I never said, at first, not to count scores at all. I said not to count the standard array, or yuor basic "rolls". I said you SHOULD count monster "racial ability score bonuses" such as the ogre's Strength +10, Dex -2, Con +4, Int -4, Cha -4. You said it had to be "all or nothing", though, and you're wrong. There is the gray area where you ONLY count things "above and beyond" the standard array. I don't see why you have a problem with doing so, to be honest.

How about the rest of you? Do you think it's "all or nothing" or do you think that we can NOT count standard array ability scores while counting any racial ability score modifiers as I attested? I only said "don't count them at all" because it CAN still work if you don't overrate everything else.

So how about it? I think I have clearly demonstrated the facts of the matter. You DON'T have to count "all or nothing". Just figure out racial ability modifiers and COUNT ONLY THOSE. Humans get none and have no modifier. Elves get +2/-2, so they have no modifier. Ogres have +10/-2/+4/-4/-4, and thus get +0.4 CR. Heck, if you do it this way, a monster's CR can actually be used AS ITS ECL as well! That means you NEVER have to calculate ability score modifiers more than once, and that time would be for the base creature only!

See what I'm saying? Stop going to extremes and count the stuff that matters. There is no reason to count ability scores for standard PCs! So to answer the question, "Can we avoid counting them and still be accurate?", I have shown the answer to be YES. Playtesting supports what I say. I should know, I've BEEN playtesting these theories, unlike everybody else here who just keeps throwing out numbers and formulas. The playtesting supports what I have said. The playtesting is what shows the truth, not some formula.

What say you?

What say me? The example you picked was a Wizard, the class with the most dump stats, and you picked, as his stats better than his fellows, the dump stats, thereby proving nothing. for 4 str, 2 wis, and 4 cha, I might just sacrifice a level, would make a good paladin =)

Eldorian Antar

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

Well then, if the question is more "Can we avoid counting them and still be accurate?",

Absolutely! That is indeed the question.

then that makes things even easier! The answer is YES! Like I said, playtest it. You have not presented one bit of evidence that counting the ability scores actually works during playtesting. You have given a lot of theory and no playtesting proof to back it up.

Just look at the Party Level. ABILITY SCORES SHOULD NOT BE COUNTED. First off, let's forget the "all 18s" argument for a moment and replace it with a far more likely scenario, shall we?

In one Level 1 party, we have a Wizard with Str8, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 15, Wis12, Cha 8. By your system, this character would be CR 2 (Level 1, Ability Scores +1). In another Level 1 party, we have a wizard with Str 12, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 15, Wis 14, Cha 12. By your system, this character would be CR 3 (Level 1, Ability Scores +2). Do you see the problem yet? Both characters, in terms of party usefulness, and pretty much IDENTICAL! The Strength doesn't matter because this Wizard shouldn't be in melee in either case, the Wisdom only gives +1 to the Wizard's best save, and the Charisma does NOTHING. Yet you would attest that the second Wizard deserves to be counted as if he were A WHOLE LEVEL HIGHER.

You already know I agree with you on this point (remember our discussion on Messenger last week). Most of the time it seems possible to get away without factoring the ability scores.

However, what I am concerned is that it may not be possible all of the time? Something I am still researching.

Remember also that I have to consider not just Challenge Rating but also Divine Creation.

You can use these scores at ANY level, and counting #2 as a level higher than #1 only gets more ridiculous the further up in level you go!

Well remember of course that the higher you go the less 1 CR impacts EL.

Now go to any normal player and ask them if they would like to play on a Level 3 party with a Level 2 Wizard with 8/12/15/15/12/8 (which would make him CR 3 now) or if they would rather have a Level 1 Wizard with 12/12/15/15/14/12 (the original CR 3). You attest these characters would be equal, but I'm willing to bet that any player who is paying attention will pick Wizard #1 because the level is NOT worth a +4 to Strength, +2 to Wisdom, and +4 to Charisma. Do you see the problem now?

You are trying to count things that simply should not be counted! Charisma is USELESS to practically half of ALL the Core Classes! Intelligence is also a score people sacrifice in most cases. Dexterity is easy to sacrifice if one plans to wear Full Plate most of his or her career. The ONLY score that is ALWAYS useful is Constitution. I know this because I am also a player, not just a DM. I KNOW.

Look, I never said, at first, not to count scores at all. I said not to count the standard array, or yuor basic "rolls". I said you SHOULD count monster "racial ability score bonuses" such as the ogre's Strength +10, Dex -2, Con +4, Int -4, Cha -4. You said it had to be "all or nothing", though, and you're wrong. There is the gray area where you ONLY count things "above and beyond" the standard array. I don't see why you have a problem with doing so, to be honest.

This is a sticking point with me I have to be honest. It just creates such a massive discrepancy between relative CRs (PC and Monster) that I am not happy with it.

Also it seems hypocritical to factor ability scores for monsters and not characters.

Perhaps this is just a mental block with me at the moment, if I could get past this I might be more in favour of your ideas.

eg. Pit Fiend
CR 33 (with ability scores)
CR 27 (without ability scores)

CR 17 (difficult, with A.S.)
CR 14 (difficult, without A.S.)

Personally I can advocate a Pit Fiend as a difficult CR 14 (playtesting bears this out), but its noticeably off if we go with CR 17.

So how about it? I think I have clearly demonstrated the facts of the matter. You DON'T have to count "all or nothing". Just figure out racial ability modifiers and COUNT ONLY THOSE. Humans get none and have no modifier. Elves get +2/-2, so they have no modifier. Ogres have +10/-2/+4/-4/-4, and thus get +0.4 CR. Heck, if you do it this way, a monster's CR can actually be used AS ITS ECL as well! That means you NEVER have to calculate ability score modifiers more than once, and that time would be for the base creature only!

See what I'm saying? Stop going to extremes and count the stuff that matters. There is no reason to count ability scores for standard PCs! So to answer the question, "Can we avoid counting them and still be accurate?", I have shown the answer to be YES. Playtesting supports what I say. I should know, I've BEEN playtesting these theories, unlike everybody else here who just keeps throwing out numbers and formulas. The playtesting supports what I have said. The playtesting is what shows the truth, not some formula.

What say you?

Its the 'don't factor ability scores for PCs but factor them for monsters' argument that is slowing my decision one way or the other.

I already agreed there are merits to not factoring ability scores (simplicity for one, avoiding low level discrepancies another), however to me the scores are all going to be wrong if we factor them for one group and not another. That is my point.

 

[Anubis]

The thing is, UK, I have presented a middle-ground wherein you count any scores above and beyond the "normal" range in CR while ignoring anything within the "standard array". That is why I advocate adding racial modifiers to ability scores into CR.

First, however, please explain your little weird ratings for CR where you mention one as (normal) and another as (difficult), as you just did with the Pit Fiend. That is nowhere in the rules, and you have not explained it in any way.

Beyond that, I would say that we can get away with taking ability scores out of the picture altogether. If anything, it'll lower most monster CRs while keeping PCs roughly the same. At any given time in the first 40 levels, standard PCs won't get more than +3 for their ability scores, and even then it won't be until the higher levels anyway. The system balances itself out, as I believe the lower-rated Pit Fiend you gave is far more accurate if not still overrated. I would rate Pit Fiends at CR 20-22 AT MOST for a "normal" encounter that takes 20% of the party's resources.

Anyway, it should work either way. Count racial bonuses or don't count anything at all, I believe it still works in playtesting. Counting the ability scores obviously does NOT work in playtesting at low levels, though, so it should be removed if you want a universal system. Just try it out in a game. Make some characters and run them against some beasties and check your results. I have. We can get away with not counting ability scores.

For divinity, simply put, just add the ability scores into the divinity templates and leave it at that, because those ARE pretty hefty bonuses. We ain't talking no 10 or 20 above the norm there, we're talking about 90 above the norm hahaha!

Anyway, I don't think the numbers look weird at all. Well they may LOOK weird, but in playtesting, those numbers without the ability socres work just fine.

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

*Quietly nods to self.*

I have been the Paleolithic-brain during any one of these threads, continually playing catch-up in my posts. Upper_Krust certainly knows this from all the Email questions he answers for me. And yet, regardless of not always grasping how the whole system works (until recently anyways; still working on mixed challenge ratings mind you) I have diligently followed these threads from the beginning (including the Andy Collins debate).

The Challenge Ratings felt almost done a long time ago. And then the attributes were added. It was weird trying to tell my group of 1st players that the human telepath (with 12 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 15 Int, 15 Wis, and 15 Cha) had the highest CR among them (barely weighing in at CR 4). It didn't seem right, but I took it on faith.

I have to say that it makes much more sense to drop the attribute modifiers altogether (or possibly include the imbalanced racial modifiers). Everything seems to work seamlessly after that, much to Andy Collin's chagrin I'm sure.



I think the upper level divinity issue can be solved another way, perhaps with "built-in" CR modifiers, perhaps not. I leave to Upper_Krust.



I want to see these Challenge Ratings redefine the game. This child needs to grow up and leave home. If I can offer this thread anything, it's my intuition. These rules are ready to go. They might stumble a few times, but they are more than well-equipped to learn from their own mistakes now.