Immortal's Handbook continuation thread

[Avatar of the North]

Immortals:

Hero-deity
Quasi-deity

Demigod
Lesser Deity
Intermediate Deity
Greater Deity

Sidereals:

Elder One (Elder Deity)
Old One (Over-deity)
First One (Proto-deity)
Demiurge

Eternals: (Time Lords)

Supernals: ...

I have to keep some secrets!

YOU THIEF

True i use a different term but its still a catagory beyond 'simple' timelords

 

[Anabstercorian]

Blasphemous armor enhancement
Blasphemous armor grants the wearer a +8 Profane bonus to saving throws against all Good spells, spell casts by good clerics, or spells cast by clerics of a good Deity.

Sacrosanct
As Blasphemous, except for good clerics.

 

[Knight Otu]

And UK (or anyone else who knows), why are other D20 books not in color (or as you say colour)? I am quite sure Wizards does not have rights on colored D20 books.

Quite simple - it's in the money. Few companies in the d20 market have the resources to pay artists for colored pics.

 

[Upper_Krust]

UK

Hiya mate!

Thats fine. The original idea came about as "save or die twice." We just elaborated on how to make "die" actually suck for epic characters =)

Btw, I am very interested in hacking out a decent CR system with you, one that takes a monster and with only minimal eyeballing required turns it into it's actual CR, such that it exactly mirrors typical PC power, including magic items and elite stats (15 14 13 12 10 8).

I admit that I should probably change ability scores to Total minus 63 (as a number of people have indirectly suggested).

Though it is much simpler keeping it all bonuses/penalties.

I'm thinking that a PC's CR is 3/5 character levels, 2/5 magic items,

Unfortunately I don't think its as simple as that. Some classes benefit more from magic items than others. (Fighters benefit more than Wizards for instance).

Its a tricky one to be sure.

with the elite stats considered average, or perhaps being a flat +.5 to the CR.

Wouldn't that be +0.9?

Pulling out Ye Goode Olde MM2, and looking at the HD types for the various monsters, and the DMG for npc classes we have what looks like 4 classifications.

3/5 PC classes, PrC, and Dragon, Outsider

1/2 Monsterous Humaniod, Magical Beast, Warrior, Adept

2/5 Aberration, Elemental, Giant, Humaniod, Shapechanger, Aristocrat, Expert

1/3 Animal, Beast, Construct, Fey, Ooze, Plant, Undead, Commoner

The top rated class/type may depend on what relationship wealth has.

Another thing, having a stat of "nil" for Con should count as at least a 10. It has many advantages over 10 tho, namely, Con damage is no problem, and any Death effect is no problem, no life to kill. You could classify "nil" as a 10, and then add in the immunities it represents as part of the immunities CR bonus.

For "nil" any other stat, it should be a flat 0.

I see your point. A zero rated ability score is more circumstantial than penalising. Though I would rate all '0' abilities as equal; I wouldn't give Constitution special treatment.

However, this application throws up a number of possible problems. Having a zero related ability score does limit the monsters options (Dex 0 = Immobile; Int 0 = Mindless etc.)

For intelegence and charisma, since they have reduced effect for encounter effectiveness (cha only effecting Diplomatic encounters, and Int only setting up tactical advantages), perhaps they should have a reduced factor on encounters at low stats. Might be too much work to do this, and not worth the effort, but hey, it's a thought.

Probably too pedantic as you suggest.

Another thought is that monsterous PCs should be allowed to take NPC classes (or raise their racial HD) in order to force thier ECL/HD ratio down, with the stipulation that HD can never exceed ECL on a PC.

For example. Dungar is a PC with ECL 10 and 9 HD. He could advance using Expert levels for 3 levels, gaining one level of expert at level 11 in exp, 2 levels of expert at level 12 in exp, making him ECL 12 with 12 HD and the exp of a level 12 character. When he gets to level 13 for exp, he can take a level of some PC character class, making him ECL 13, with 13 HD. So he traded his racial bonuses for crappy character classes until he got his HD up to his ECL.

So (assuming planetouched is +1 ECL), a level 2 fighter planetouched is ECL 3, but a level 3 Aristocrat planetoched is ECL 3 as well.

Other than Non-living monsters (Elementals; Outsiders; Undead etc.) I don't see how they could naturally raise their Hit Dice except from growth.

back to my Medusa fasicanation...

Medusa 6 Monsterous humanoid HD= +3

total difference over average stats 14 = +1.4

If we utilise the 10.5 average okay.

Natural armor 3 = +.3

Poison snake bite ad hoc (extra attack and weak poison)= +1

I'm still outlining this revision.

Total Poison Effect (add initial and secondary damage) divided by 10

eg. Medusa 1d6 + 2d6 = 3d6 (average 11) = +1.1

Its plausible that poison should also be limited by application. I mean a creature with a poison attack who has five envenomed attacks is more damgerous than the same creature with only one.

Petrifying gaze (similiar to bodak death gaze from pdf, 1.5, I think it should be higher) = +2

Actually I think I have found an easier way.

Spell-level effect divided by 10.

Doubled for a Gaze Weapon of course.

eg. Medusas Gaze = Turn to Stone = 0.6 x 2 Gaze (because its automatic - you don't have to 'use' it as you would a Breath Weapon or Ray) = +1.2

eg. Bodaks Gaze = 9th = 0.9 x2 Gaze = 1.8 + 0.5 for Create Spawn = +2.3

Total 7.7 (.7 higher than MM, this one is pretty close to book actually)

Total 7 exactly by my above suggestions.

Medusa as a PC. Since wealth is 2/5 the character,

medusa statsifies equation

7.7=3/5C

where C is the ECL (assuming has magic items for the ECL, which is 2/5 the ECL)

ECL of medusa PC with normal magic item set is 12 5/6. So a Pc medusa, with level 13 magic items, is level 13. Seems too high. But, judging from the CR/ECL ratio in the MM2, 3/5 is about right.

Should Monsters gain PC wealth for their initial CR though!? To be honest I am sceptical!

I mean just because an ogre has more Hit Dice or a higher starting ECL doesn't mean it has automatically been adventuring!

Personally I would keep the Medusa at ECL 7 but not give it PC wealth until it reaches 1st-level.

Lets look at this using my proposed NPC classes to catch up on HD.

Since we must factor in Magic after HD.. lets work in CR from character alone.

Medusa 6 HD, 7.7 CR

want CR to be 3/5 HD
Lets add commoner levels in bunches of 3

level 3, 9HD, 8.7CR
level 6, 12HD, 9.7CR
level 9, 15HD, 10.7CR want CR 9
level 12, 18HD, 11.7CR want CR 10.8
level 15, 21 HD, 12.7CR want CR 12.6

Holy crap, in order to get a medusa up to HD=ECL, need to be a level 15 commoner, with 6 HD of medusa. Perhaps 1/3 is too generous for commoner levels. 1/4 might be in order. 1/3 for commoner means that 9 levels of commoner are the equilvalent of 5 levels of fighter. Going by HP, BAB, and Saves, the common falls a bit short there. however, going by 1/4, 12 levels of commoner are equal to 5 levels of fighter, where the commoner gets 3 more HP, 1 more BAB, and better ref and will saves (3 feats less tho tho). If the feats were toughness and weapon focus tho... hmm.. 1/4 might be about right.

Indeed Commoner should be 1/4.

That was one of the changes already implemented - just not yet updated.

Commoner levels in bunches of 4
level 4, 10 HD, 8.7CR
level 8, 14 HD, 9.7 CR
level 12, 18 HD, 10.7 Want CR 10.8, done

Medusa HD=ECL, need to be a level 12 Commoner, with 6 HD of medusa, at ECL 18.

My medusa would have 5d8 +12d4 + 18(bonus con)HP= 8 +4.5*4 +2.5*12 +18= 74 base hp.

Bab = 6+6=12, +2 from bonus dex on ranged, so +14 ranged to hit.
base saves at fort +6, ref +9, wil +9, with +1 to will and fort from bonus stats, 2 from bonus dex.
total saves fort 7, ref 11, wil 10.

with petrification gaze at DC 10 +1/2HD +2(bonus cha) +CHA = 21+ cha

poison DC 20 +con

that doesn't look so bad for a level 18 character. crappy fighter, mean gaze attack.

I think, in conclusion, we can agree that the medusa is a hard PC to make.

Also, it seems that the most important calculation to make is "how much does character wealth effect CR" With this calculation, we can determine exact ECL. 2/5 - 1/4 is what it seems wizards says, based on the MM2 and what I've read of the Savage Species.

It would indeed be interesting to see their findings in Savage Species.

Personally I was thinking +1/4 for Wizards to +1/2 for Fighters. The variable of course being part of the problem. I may settle for a +1/3 or +2/5 as you suggest? (with 2/5 being easier to rate).

 

[Anubis]

ARGH! I was getting ready to test this all out, and now you throw more doubts into the whole thing! Dammit!

First off, UK, I found the first glitch. It has to do with ability scores on PCs. My group of Level 1 PCs Is CR 4, 3, 3, 3. An ogre is CR 3, yet a MUCH MUCH MUCH bigger challenge for a party of four than any of the PCs would be. In fact, the PCR suggests that the party could take on several ogres when I doubt they could even take on ONE ogre. I think some tweaking is necessary there . . .

Argh, maybe I'll just go back to the old way, as it is much less confusing.

I think you need to drop the low-level changes already, man. I believe I have successfully broken your system.

 

[Anubis]

Better yet, lemme give a better example. The enemy is an ogre. CR 3.

The PCs are all Level 1 with 10, 10, 12, 14, 15, 16 as stats. Each is CR 3 as well, for PCR 3.

PEL 5 against EL 5. An even fight, right?

Wrong. I am willing to bet the ogre would win 80% of fights between the two. See my point?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Dark Wolf mate!

I only intended for the changes to be physical (so if an evil Warlord was removed as you say, all the people he killed personally should come back to life. But if he had ordered his guards to kill people or burn the grain, they would not come back.) Thats why I said the memories remained.

I like the idea of completely removing them, but I thought it would be much too difficult to handle (I tried it once in a mini-adventure, but I needed more forethought).

I plan to try again, and change the wording to sound good.

I would agree the difficulty is not in outlining the power itself but rather the consequences of that power.

What bonus to you think such an ability would have,

At least +50; probably more. I'd have to think about it.

and if the DC is variable (based on casted level), how would it change it? (DC of 5 would be worthless = 1, DC of 5000 would be = ALOT)

I am using +2 DC = +1 to market price.

Polymorphing
On a critiacl hit, the subject makes a Will save (17) or is polymorphed into whatever the wielder wills.

Paralysing -
On a critical hit, the creature hit makes a Fort save (17) or is Paralysed for 3d4 rounds.

I am sure they already have something like this in the Intelligent Weapon Powers.

Maddening -
Once activated by the owner, this weapon emits horrible sceams and sounds, demonic ranting... all within 30 feet must make a Will save DC 30 or suffer the effects of the Insanity spell, this lasts as long as they are in the radius and 7 rounds after they exit it. The owner is unaffected.

Wouldn't this make gaining allies a bit tough?

Blocking -
This weapon has a 50% chance to block any physical attack that would hit (attack has suceeded, damage to be resolved) the wielder.

I have a similar ability as a Shield ability

Greater Blocking -
This weapon has a 50% chance to block and turn back any physical attack that would hit the wielder. (the attack that would have hit the wielder, now hits the attacker)

I have another version that blocks any one weapon per round (those with 1st Ed. Deities & Demigods may remember Enlil's Helmet which had a similar power).

I also have "Retributive" Armour that reflects all damage.

Doom Frost -
This weapon always has the spell Dire Winter focused on it, the owner may repress or activate this effect at will.

+160

I'll probably have a few more tommorow.

Keep 'em coming!

Oh and I've been working on a spell to bring eternal night to a plane but I can't figure how, any suggestions?

A permanent eclipse.

Looking forward to the Supernals.

My lips are sealed.

I need a better name for the Blocking and Greater Blocking abilities. (anybody, feel free)

Incorporeal and Retributive...?

I'm probably going to copy the lot of this stuff (the item abilites) to use in my campain, maybe I'll see some of it in the IH.

And UK (or anyone else who knows), why are other D20 books not in color (or as you say colour)? I am quite sure Wizards does not have rights on colored D20 books.

As Knight Otu mentioned the costs are prohibitive. I seem to recall a thread where Ryan Dancey outlined the cost difference - (If I recall correctly) I think colour was four times more expensive to print.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Avatar mate!

Immortals:

YOU THIEF

True i use a different term but its still a catagory beyond 'simple' timelords

I have two categories beyond Time Lords.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

ARGH! I was getting ready to test this all out, and now you throw more doubts into the whole thing! Dammit!

First off, UK, I found the first glitch. It has to do with ability scores on PCs. My group of Level 1 PCs Is CR 4, 3, 3, 3. An ogre is CR 3, yet a MUCH MUCH MUCH bigger challenge for a party of four than any of the PCs would be. In fact, the PCR suggests that the party could take on several ogres when I doubt they could even take on ONE ogre.

They should comfortably be able to deal with one Ogre.

I think some tweaking is necessary there . . .

Possibly. If we utilise 10.5 as the average then your PCs would be PCR 2.

Argh, maybe I'll just go back to the old way, as it is much less confusing.

I think you need to drop the low-level changes already, man. I believe I have successfully broken your system.

Thats defeatist talk, we don't brook that here.

Better yet, lemme give a better example. The enemy is an ogre. CR 3.

The PCs are all Level 1 with 10, 10, 12, 14, 15, 16 as stats. Each is CR 3 as well, for PCR 3.

PEL 5 against EL 5. An even fight, right?

Wrong. I am willing to bet the ogre would win 80% of fights between the two. See my point?

Its plausible Size should be +1 per category.

 

[Anubis]

Why not, if you're so obsessed with the ability scores factor, make it +0.1 per bonus or +0.05 per ability score point over the 60 (assuming all 10s are average)?

Then make size +1 per category.

That MIGHT work.