Immortal's Handbook continuation thread

[Anubis]

By the way, UK, what made you decide that CRx2 = EL+4?

I would think that CR x2 = EL+2. Perhaps you should reconsider the mechanic.

Think about it:

If an EL+2 is twice as difficult, then is means a doubling of the power. Level 2 is 100% over Level 1 . . . Level 20 is 100% over Level 10 . . .

 

[Clay_More]

I just had one ability that I thought of, one that is a little special as well.

Trail of Depravation
A blade with the Trail of Depravation causes 2d6 points of extra, unholy damage. The blade is clouded in blackness, making it appear as if though it was forged by shadows. When the blade is wielded, it leaves behind a trail of shadows, which are harmful to any creatures entering them. Any 5 ft. square in which the blade has been wielded causes 2d6 points of unholy damage to anyone that enters up to five rounds after the blade has been wielded there. In a narrow passage, a fighter can use the Trail of Depravation to create a cloudy wall of negative energy to hinder eventual pursuers. It is possible for a figher to infect all squares around him if doing nothing else.

Price: +3 Bonus

Dont know if it has already been made, just sounds cool in my ears with a blade that leaves behind a trail of evil where it has been. Off course, anyone running with the blade unsheathed cannot possibly hide..

 

[Eldorian]

UK

Hiya mate!

Hey to you too. =P

I admit that I should probably change ability scores to Total minus 63 (as a number of people have indirectly suggested).

Though it is much simpler keeping it all bonuses/penalties.

I agree. you should take each odd stat and subtract 11, and each even and subtract 10, and then divide by whatever, only keep track of full bonuses. The odd stats, while required for feats, have almost no effect otherwise, certainly not enought to majorly effect CR.

Unfortunately I don't think its as simple as that. Some classes benefit more from magic items than others. (Fighters benefit more than Wizards for instance).

Its a tricky one to be sure.

I'm not so sure on if fighters benefit more. Maybe the problem is there are not enough good magic items for spell casters. Maybe I need to type out my supposed changes to magic item creation, huh? =D

Wouldn't that be +0.9?

I thought that before reading what you had changed how stats worked, into .1 increments.

The top rated class/type may depend on what relationship wealth has.

Yah, see above.

I see your point. A zero rated ability score is more circumstantial than penalising. Though I would rate all '0' abilities as equal; I wouldn't give Constitution special treatment.

However, this application throws up a number of possible problems. Having a zero related ability score does limit the monsters options (Dex 0 = Immobile; Int 0 = Mindless etc.)



Probably too pedantic as you suggest.

I dunno, all stats but Con as nil suggest the same value as a 0, which is a penalty.

Other than Non-living monsters (Elementals; Outsiders; Undead etc.) I don't see how they could naturally raise their Hit Dice except from growth.

In savage species i think they let monsters countinue to gain HD instead of classes.

I'm still outlining this revision.

Total Poison Effect (add initial and secondary damage) divided by 10

eg. Medusa 1d6 + 2d6 = 3d6 (average 11) = +1.1

Its plausible that poison should also be limited by application. I mean a creature with a poison attack who has five envenomed attacks is more damgerous than the same creature with only one.

Definatly. Since the medusa only gets poison on one attack, and it is an extra attack, it needs some sort of special case. Perhaps add a half of the bonus again for each attack the creature can make that has that poison on it. Also, initial damage should be rated higher than secondary. 3d6 con intial and 1d6 secondary is much tougher than 1d6 initial and 3d6 secondary. First one means you might die, second means get a neutralize poison or you might die.

Actually I think I have found an easier way.

Spell-level effect divided by 10.

Doubled for a Gaze Weapon of course.

eg. Medusas Gaze = Turn to Stone = 0.6 x 2 Gaze (because its automatic - you don't have to 'use' it as you would a Breath Weapon or Ray) = +1.2

eg. Bodaks Gaze = 9th = 0.9 x2 Gaze = 1.8 + 0.5 for Create Spawn = +2.3

A bodak's gaze is a 9th level spell? Isn't finger of death 7th level and slay living 5th? It's much closer to 7th (slay living is touch). Also, do you think 0.6 is enough for a creature that had the supernatural power to cause one person to turn to stone as a standard action? basically has flesh to stone as an unlimited use, DC 10 +1/2HD +Cha, spell-like power usuable at will? Perhaps that should be twice 0.6 (1.2), and gaze attacks should be three times, or 1.8.

Should Monsters gain PC wealth for their initial CR though!? To be honest I am sceptical!

I mean just because an ogre has more Hit Dice or a higher starting ECL doesn't mean it has automatically been adventuring!

Personally I would keep the Medusa at ECL 7 but not give it PC wealth until it reaches 1st-level.

Well, in savage species they have rules for monsters gaining levels of monster classes, so you could start the medusa as a first level PC with 1hd of monsterous humanoid. Also, a ECL 12 medusa, if it started with no character wealth at ECL 7, would have wealth of 12 - wealth of 7, or about 88k- 19k for a PC, 69k gold, which is more than a level 11 character. I think it's easier to assume that the character has character wealth at all levels, using the advancement ideas from savage species that alow you to play monsters at first level.

Indeed Commoner should be 1/4.

That was one of the changes already implemented - just not yet updated.

Ah good, wish I had known that, was alot of work trying to figure out where they belonged =P

It would indeed be interesting to see their findings in Savage Species.

Personally I was thinking +1/4 for Wizards to +1/2 for Fighters. The variable of course being part of the problem. I may settle for a +1/3 or +2/5 as you suggest? (with 2/5 being easier to rate).

See, once again, if the magic items equally favored both spell caster and warrior, then we'd not have this problem. Note to self, finish alternate item rules.

Eldorian Antar

 

[Dark Wolf 97]

And more...

Godsbane -
This weapon ability eliminates any non-mortal within a 100 ft radius, without a save. (I know you don't like it)

Assimilator -
Once per day, you may assimilate the body and mind of a being you just killed, you control their body (now at full HP), and know all their memories, can use their spells, attack, and abilities. You remain in this form until you kill another being you want to become, then the old body falls, lifeless.

Life Bane -
This weapon functions as a +5 higher weapon against living beings.

Lesser Life Bane -
This weapon functions as a +2 higher weapon against living beings.

Greater Life Bane -
This weapon functions as a +8 higher weapon against living beings.

Immortal -
While wearing this armor, you do not need food, sleep, or air, you cannot die of old age, all damage dealt to you is reduced to 0, you are immune to all harmful (wearer decides) effects (spells...). This ability cannot be repressed in any way. (anti-magic, epic dispelling, or immortals)

Elemental Command -
You may cast, at will, as a free action, without components, any damaging elemental spell (fireball, ray of frost), any number of times per day.

Greater Summoning -
By focusing for seven minutes, you can summon an outsider of tremendous power. The enhancement bonus of this spell is equal to the highest HD of creatures you can summon (with a minimum of 20). These outsiders, if they choose not to answer the summons are ripped through the planes (with a save = 20+enhancement bonus/2) to your position, they must obey you completely, for hours equal to the enhancement bonus. Commands against their nature are ignored.

My mind has been emptied for now.....on the morrow.

 

[Anubis]

And more...

Godsbane -
This weapon ability eliminates any non-mortal within a 100 ft radius, without a save. (I know you don't like it)

Personally I'd stick this at +2000.

Assimilator -
Once per day, you may assimilate the body and mind of a being you just killed, you control their body (now at full HP), and know all their memories, can use their spells, attack, and abilities. You remain in this form until you kill another being you want to become, then the old body falls, lifeless.

+50 perhaps?

Life Bane -
This weapon functions as a +5 higher weapon against living beings.

Lesser Life Bane -
This weapon functions as a +2 higher weapon against living beings.

Greater Life Bane -
This weapon functions as a +8 higher weapon against living beings.

I'd say +10, +4, and +16.

Immortal -
While wearing this armor, you do not need food, sleep, or air, you cannot die of old age, all damage dealt to you is reduced to 0, you are immune to all harmful (wearer decides) effects (spells...). This ability cannot be repressed in any way. (anti-magic, epic dispelling, or immortals)

I'd say that's an artifact, or close to +10000.

Elemental Command -
You may cast, at will, as a free action, without components, any damaging elemental spell (fireball, ray of frost), any number of times per day.

+18?

 

[Anabstercorian]

Are you high?

What is with the pricing for the Life Bane things?

Look, it's considered to increase the bonus by some amount, but only when against living opponents. If it doesn't always function, why does it cost MORE than simply increasing the enchantment, which functions ALL the time against ALL enemies and targets?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

Why not, if you're so obsessed with the ability scores factor, make it +0.1 per bonus or +0.05 per ability score point over the 60 (assuming all 10s are average)?

Then make size +1 per category.

That MIGHT work.

Rating Ability Scores at +0.1 affects almost every other factor (not to mention dozens of relative issues outside the CR/EL pdf itself). Changing them is not an issue.

It may be pertinent to change size. That one has always dogged me.

By the way, UK, what made you decide that CRx2 = EL+4?

I would think that CR x2 = EL+2. Perhaps you should reconsider the mechanic.

Think about it:

If an EL+2 is twice as difficult, then is means a doubling of the power. Level 2 is 100% over Level 1 . . . Level 20 is 100% over Level 10 . . .

CR x2 = EL +4 is the proper exchange rate.

Doubling CR is the same as multiplying the number of opponents by four.*

I hit upon the mechanic while I was toying with EXP tables.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Clay_More mate!

I just had one ability that I thought of, one that is a little special as well.

Trail of Depravation
A blade with the Trail of Depravation causes 2d6 points of extra, unholy damage. The blade is clouded in blackness, making it appear as if though it was forged by shadows. When the blade is wielded, it leaves behind a trail of shadows, which are harmful to any creatures entering them. Any 5 ft. square in which the blade has been wielded causes 2d6 points of unholy damage to anyone that enters up to five rounds after the blade has been wielded there. In a narrow passage, a fighter can use the Trail of Depravation to create a cloudy wall of negative energy to hinder eventual pursuers. It is possible for a figher to infect all squares around him if doing nothing else.

Price: +3 Bonus

Dont know if it has already been made, just sounds cool in my ears with a blade that leaves behind a trail of evil where it has been. Off course, anyone running with the blade unsheathed cannot possibly hide..

I like it. Reminds me of the motorcycles in Tron.

However I think the effect is more suited to Armour than a weapon.

 

[Upper_Krust]

UK Hey to you too. =P

Hello again mate!

I agree. you should take each odd stat and subtract 11, and each even and subtract 10, and then divide by whatever, only keep track of full bonuses. The odd stats, while required for feats, have almost no effect otherwise, certainly not enought to majorly effect CR.

Couldn't we just keep it at Total; minus 63 and divide by 10.

I'm not so sure on if fighters benefit more. Maybe the problem is there are not enough good magic items for spell casters. Maybe I need to type out my supposed changes to magic item creation, huh? =D

Fighters benefit offensively and defensively. Wizards benefit more defensively.

I thought that before reading what you had changed how stats worked, into .1 increments.

I dunno, all stats but Con as nil suggest the same value as a 0, which is a penalty.

I hate having exceptions to simple mechanics - really slows things immensely.

In savage species i think they let monsters countinue to gain HD instead of classes.

I can see it working as a mechanic, if not biologically.

Definatly. Since the medusa only gets poison on one attack, and it is an extra attack, it needs some sort of special case. Perhaps add a half of the bonus again for each attack the creature can make that has that poison on it.

Thats what I was thinking.

Also, initial damage should be rated higher than secondary. 3d6 con intial and 1d6 secondary is much tougher than 1d6 initial and 3d6 secondary. First one means you might die, second means get a neutralize poison or you might die.

Seems feasible. I like it.

A bodak's gaze is a 9th level spell? Isn't finger of death 7th level and slay living 5th? It's much closer to 7th (slay living is touch).

Oops 0.7 x2 = 1.4 +0.5 = 1.9

Also, do you think 0.6 is enough for a creature that had the supernatural power to cause one person to turn to stone as a standard action? basically has flesh to stone as an unlimited use, DC 10 +1/2HD +Cha, spell-like power usuable at will? Perhaps that should be twice 0.6 (1.2), and gaze attacks should be three times, or 1.8.

You see this is the problem with Spell-like Abilities.

Ideally you want to rate the top 'At Will' ability and have secondary abilities as fractions of that - since you can only use one ability per round.

Whereas a Gaze Weapon is automatic and therefore constitutes an additional attack. So actually perhaps its better simply rating it and adding +0.5 rather than doubling it.

Well, in savage species they have rules for monsters gaining levels of monster classes, so you could start the medusa as a first level PC with 1hd of monsterous humanoid. Also, a ECL 12 medusa, if it started with no character wealth at ECL 7, would have wealth of 12 - wealth of 7, or about 88k- 19k for a PC, 69k gold, which is more than a level 11 character. I think it's easier to assume that the character has character wealth at all levels, using the advancement ideas from savage species that alow you to play monsters at first level.

Possibly.

By our current method we arrive at ECL 10.5 (11).

What did Savage Species have again?

Ah good, wish I had known that, was alot of work trying to figure out where they belonged =P

Sorry.

See, once again, if the magic items equally favored both spell caster and warrior, then we'd not have this problem. Note to self, finish alternate item rules.

A 10th-level Fighter with PC equipment is equal to a 19th-level Fighter with 1st-level PC equipment.

But you couldn't say the same about two Wizards.

Unfortunately this in turn impacts Integrated 'Spells'. Which in turn impacts Spell-like Abilities...yadda yadda yadda...you end up running round in circles.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Dark Wolf mate!

And more...

Godsbane -
This weapon ability eliminates any non-mortal within a 100 ft radius, without a save. (I know you don't like it)

You know me well!

Assimilator -
Once per day, you may assimilate the body and mind of a being you just killed, you control their body (now at full HP), and know all their memories, can use their spells, attack, and abilities. You remain in this form until you kill another being you want to become, then the old body falls, lifeless.

A bit close to a cosmic power I already have.

Life Bane -
This weapon functions as a +5 higher weapon against living beings.

Lesser Life Bane -
This weapon functions as a +2 higher weapon against living beings.

Greater Life Bane -
This weapon functions as a +8 higher weapon against living beings.

Surely it would just be better to retain the 'Bane' Special Ability!?

Immortal -
While wearing this armor, you do not need food, sleep, or air, you cannot die of old age, all damage dealt to you is reduced to 0, you are immune to all harmful (wearer decides) effects (spells...). This ability cannot be repressed in any way. (anti-magic, epic dispelling, or immortals)

Seemingly you have just taken yourself out of the game. When you can't be hurt by anything ever then you are the Dungeon Master.

+infinity

Of course you could always go back in time to before the wearer donned the armour and then kill them...

Elemental Command -
You may cast, at will, as a free action, without components, any damaging elemental spell (fireball, ray of frost), any number of times per day.

+10

Greater Summoning -
By focusing for seven minutes, you can summon an outsider of tremendous power. The enhancement bonus of this spell is equal to the highest HD of creatures you can summon (with a minimum of 20). These outsiders, if they choose not to answer the summons are ripped through the planes (with a save = 20+enhancement bonus/2) to your position, they must obey you completely, for hours equal to the enhancement bonus. Commands against their nature are ignored.

Interesting. It would be nice if the Armour itself became the two dimensional gate and the summoned creature(s) stepped out of the armour.

My mind has been emptied for now.....on the morrow.