Immortal's Handbook continuation thread

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again mate!

The problem I have is not with the balor, but with the Vampire template or anything else with loads of bonuses to skills.

Lich and Demilich are about the only other major offenders.

I contest that the vampire's skills are NOT worth enough to bump it up a WHOLE CR like you claim. Plain and simple.

Why is it okay with the Balor but not the Vampire? Your argument sounds hypocritical.

As to your example, you're once again trying to compare things that can't be compared.

Don't be silly. Of course these things can be compared, how do you think feats and spells are determined!?

Or did it not occur to you that being able to have a normal +10 to a skill is FAR better than having a magic item that does the same?

Absolutely, but it was still half the cost of most comparable feat rated items!

I wasn't comparing feats to items; I was comparing items to items which were the same 'pound for pound'. Obviously the relationships converted to feats would be similar if not identical.

Anyway, why am I the only person who seems to understand that Listen, spot, Hide, and Move Silently have NO effect on sneak attacks? You have to catch your opponent flat-footed or flank the opponent to use sneak attack. If you go before the enemy in initiative, then you catch that opponent flat-footed. If not, you can't catch them flat-footed at all, regardless of those skills. Once the character goes in battle, you can't catch them by surprise either, meaning the skills do nothing in the middle of a battle under all normal circumstaces.

But what about if the Rogue is trying a sneak attack before battle commences!

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Sneak Attack pointer....

Let's not forget, you can also perform a Sneak Attack by flanking an opponent.

 

[Anubis]

+2 Cloak of Resistance: 4000 GP*

*If anything Cloaks of Resistance are priced too low. The above should represent a bonus to a single saving throw type; rather than all three.

+2 to one saving throw (amended Cloak of Resistance)

Um, you're changing the CLoak of Resistance?

Have you ever heard the saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"?

Your work is sounding less and less appealing the more needless stuff I hear about being in it. The Cloak of Resistance is PERFECT as-is.

 

[Anubis]

As for your comparisons of magic items, your comparisons hold NO water. You keep forgetting, for some odd reason, that the various feats are NOT equal in power!

A +10 to a skill costs how much it does because that's it's cost, not because there was any relation with any feats. Heck, some items that give feats cost FAR more than the mere 2000. That fact alone kills your argument entirely.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Anubis mate!

Um, you're changing the Cloak of Resistance?

I'm considering it. I think it could be undervalued.

Have you ever heard the saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"?

Obviously I wouldn't change something unless I thought it needed it. Something I am investigating at the moment.

Your work is sounding less and less appealing the more needless stuff I hear about being in it.

Okay, todays quota of scaremongering fulfilled. Check.

The Cloak of Resistance is PERFECT as-is.

I'm not so sure.

As for your comparisons of magic items, your comparisons hold NO water. You keep forgetting, for some odd reason, that the various feats are NOT equal in power!

But they are relatively equal. A point you keep dismissing even though I have mentioned it time and again.

Just as Class Levels are not entirely balanced - but they are close enough so as not to be problematic.

A +10 to a skill costs how much it does because that's it's cost, not because there was any relation with any feats.

Utter nonsense. Obviously WotC have attempted to balance all the feats so that none are clearly superior or inferior they don't just pick the various bonuses at random.

Heck, some items that give feats cost FAR more than the mere 2000.

Which ones specifically?

There is no actual mechanic in the DMG for adding feats to items.

That fact alone kills your argument entirely.

Whats more likely is that any evidence produced will support my theory.

 

[Eldorian]

Cloak of resistance ain't broke? Listen here mate. Saves work on a scale approximatly half that of AC. IE, spell combat is scaled to half that of weapon combat. So you're saying that an item that gives a universal bonus to spell defence, the cloak of resistance, the same price as the equivalent protection for weapon combat, ie, magical armor enhancement, is a good idea?

If you don't immediately follow that saves should be approximatly half ac.. look at this. Wizards, Clerics, Druids and Sorcerers get new spell levels every other character level. The save DC on a spell (think Attack bonus with an average roll of 10) is 10 + spell level + stat. Now, the bonus to hit weapn a weapon, for a warrior type, is Level + stat. Level is twice spell level, ergo, the "attack bonus" of a spell is scaled approximatly half that of a physical attack. This discrepency is even more disgusting when you consider that physical attack bonus is very simple to increase, with enhancement bonuses to weapons. Also, the spell caster often must use spells lower level than his max spell level, which pushes the DC down some more. Is there an enhancement bonus for spell attack bonus? (note to self. FINISH ALTERNATE ITEM RULES.. new idea, add in alternate types of bonus to saves, other than enhancement, to mimic AC)

Now for defence. We'll assume a monk, which gets the best saves. The monk's defence against spells is equal to 1/2 level +2 +stat. A npc fighter's AC (out of DMG, he has the best AC), on the otherhand, is approximatly ("roll" your AC to compare it to saves) level +3~4 + stat(2 stats for monk). So obviously his physical defence is scaled to be ~ twice the monk's magical defence.

So, obviously, since there is a single weapon attack bonus magical bonus, and enough armor bonuses to keep up, and there is not a magical bonus for spell "attack bonus", but there is one for spell defence, the spell defence one should cost significantly more than the armor bonuses (at least twice, if not more, since there is no spell attack bonus item).

Now, I'm not saying that cloak of resistance is "broken" in that the mechanic destroys the game. I am saying that the mechanic favors defenders. And that the magic item is vastly superior to other defensive items of similiar cost. After all, a ring of protection, which is one of the 4 main AC magic items, costs twice as much as a cloak of resistance. Would you rather have a cloak or a ring? In the games I play in, we fight things that make us save or bad things happen. I assume, given the number of spell caster classes and the amount of supernatural and spell like abilites on the monsters in DnD, that other players have had similiar experiences. Since AC costs twice as much to increase as saves, and the saves are easier to get above the enemy spell caster's DCs, then the cloak would be a better buy. If the world were fair, there would be a way to use magic items to enhance your spell DCs, and 4 ways to enhance your saves, just like with weapons and AC, except that the magic attack and defence times would cost twice as much.

Another problem with DnD combat (one that I realised from computer RPGS) is that magic spells scale funky. They increase in power MUCH faster than physical attacks. And save or die mechanics are simply annoying, and require resurrections to be in the game to balance it out, which I find a tad annoying.

Anywho, I'ma gonna go do something else than rant about dnd balence and how I could make it better.

Eldorian Antar

 

[-Eä-]

Greetings!

It has been a while since I posted here the last time, but I have been busy for a long time now... I have, however, been following the thread, and while I haven't replied, I have given some issues some thought.


As for skills: In the campaign in which I am playing, skills are perhaps more important than combat. Given: combat is universal, so it should be rated higher than skills, but indeed skills are vital.

Know that: All challenges have a challenge rating. Not only opponents that you face, but also difficult situations. For instance, last time I played, I joined a tournament in a gnome city. This tournament involved extensive use of the balance skill (as have many of my activities of late). This was far more challenging than facing a group of 3 orcs (for my second level character) and should be rated as such.

To me it seems that many of you underrate skills, and I am happy with the current rating of skills.


However, I do not agree with the skill bonus of skill focus: I think +10 is too much: The skill bonus from skill focus is an unnamed one, and is therefore more valuable than a racial one (remember, racial bonuses don't stack). Other bonuses that are unnamed have a higher cost than those that have a name.
Also: Skill Focus is a prerequisite for entering many prestige classes. This may not seem as a balancing factor to many of you, as also "good feats" may be prerequisites, but in my opinion, it is a valid argument for it not grow "out of proportion."
As you develop your character, you may gain different racial bonuses, from magic, special circumstances, divine intervention and so on, but only the highest one counts. I guess this is minor, but it should e accounted for.

I suggest changing Skill Focus to a +5 bonus. This way it is treated as an unnamed bonus and is 2.5 times better than the original Skill Focus feat, which at least makes it worth it for some characters.


I hope this made some sense, but I wouldn't bet on it (-;

 

[Dark Wolf 97]

Goodday everybody!

It makes perfect sense. And I agree with an unnamed +5 as the bonus, and perhaps upgrading the epic to +13 or +14.

As for the Cloak of R., it may be underrated, as much of what Eldorian said makes sense. Of course I don't try to find flaws in the books, like it seems some of you do ('course I'm not writing a book).

Later

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Obviously WotC have attempted to balance all the feats so that none are clearly superior or inferior they don't just pick the various bonuses at random.

Not to unduly support Wizards of the Coast, but they have been quoted as saying "not all feats were created equal". They were even talking about Skill Focus at the time (when asked to justify the +2 bonus against a feat like Alertness). Many people were already imbuing Skill Focus with a +3 bonus, and then additional supplements jumped on the bandwagon.

My point is this ... while all feats are relatively equal in power, some feats are going to break the bell curve of power, and that is seeming by design. Giving a non-epic character +10 on a skill bonus at 1st level is the equivalent of giving them an automatic Take 10 ability (the ability to perform a skill even under stressful circumstances). It's simply too great a bonus.

If you are going to imbue the feat with a bonus greater than +3, then make the bonus +5 at most, make a Greater Skill Focus feat +10 (in total), and keep the epic skill focus feat at +10 (self-contained).

Curious, if you do increase the Skill Focus bonus to +5, then how do you plan on changing feats like Alterness?

 

[Anubis]

Cloak of resistance ain't broke? Listen here mate. Saves work on a scale approximatly half that of AC. IE, spell combat is scaled to half that of weapon combat. So you're saying that an item that gives a universal bonus to spell defence, the cloak of resistance, the same price as the equivalent protection for weapon combat, ie, magical armor enhancement, is a good idea?

If you don't immediately follow that saves should be approximatly half ac.. look at this. Wizards, Clerics, Druids and Sorcerers get new spell levels every other character level. The save DC on a spell (think Attack bonus with an average roll of 10) is 10 + spell level + stat. Now, the bonus to hit weapn a weapon, for a warrior type, is Level + stat. Level is twice spell level, ergo, the "attack bonus" of a spell is scaled approximatly half that of a physical attack. This discrepency is even more disgusting when you consider that physical attack bonus is very simple to increase, with enhancement bonuses to weapons. Also, the spell caster often must use spells lower level than his max spell level, which pushes the DC down some more. Is there an enhancement bonus for spell attack bonus? (note to self. FINISH ALTERNATE ITEM RULES.. new idea, add in alternate types of bonus to saves, other than enhancement, to mimic AC)

Now for defence. We'll assume a monk, which gets the best saves. The monk's defence against spells is equal to 1/2 level +2 +stat. A npc fighter's AC (out of DMG, he has the best AC), on the otherhand, is approximatly ("roll" your AC to compare it to saves) level +3~4 + stat(2 stats for monk). So obviously his physical defence is scaled to be ~ twice the monk's magical defence.

So, obviously, since there is a single weapon attack bonus magical bonus, and enough armor bonuses to keep up, and there is not a magical bonus for spell "attack bonus", but there is one for spell defence, the spell defence one should cost significantly more than the armor bonuses (at least twice, if not more, since there is no spell attack bonus item).

Now, I'm not saying that cloak of resistance is "broken" in that the mechanic destroys the game. I am saying that the mechanic favors defenders. And that the magic item is vastly superior to other defensive items of similiar cost. After all, a ring of protection, which is one of the 4 main AC magic items, costs twice as much as a cloak of resistance. Would you rather have a cloak or a ring? In the games I play in, we fight things that make us save or bad things happen. I assume, given the number of spell caster classes and the amount of supernatural and spell like abilites on the monsters in DnD, that other players have had similiar experiences. Since AC costs twice as much to increase as saves, and the saves are easier to get above the enemy spell caster's DCs, then the cloak would be a better buy. If the world were fair, there would be a way to use magic items to enhance your spell DCs, and 4 ways to enhance your saves, just like with weapons and AC, except that the magic attack and defence times would cost twice as much.

Another problem with DnD combat (one that I realised from computer RPGS) is that magic spells scale funky. They increase in power MUCH faster than physical attacks. And save or die mechanics are simply annoying, and require resurrections to be in the game to balance it out, which I find a tad annoying.

Anywho, I'ma gonna go do something else than rant about dnd balence and how I could make it better.

Eldorian Antar

And THAT fulfills the wild rambling tangent that picks and chooses some facts while leaving out others for the day.

You must realize that the magic system is NOT meant to wholly be like the physical combat system. In fact, from the looks of it, it's BACKWARDS. For physical combat, your defense is 10 plus numbers and your attack is a base plus numbers. For magical combat, your ATTACK starts at 10 and adds a number while your DEFENSE is a base plus a number.

Is that tilted toward defenders, though? The answer: YES. Guess what? That's how it was designed! You see, another fact you convenienty left out is that spells have MUCH more damage potential than normal attacks do. There is a reason, after all, why an epic wizard could almost always defeat an epic fighter of the same level in a duel. Spells are stronger! As such, it SHOULD lean toward the defender, as the greater the chance of instant death, the easier the save should be. Not only that, but saves are used more often and need to be increased quicker. Are saves more valuable? Yes. Are they more NECESSARY? YES. THAT is why the Cloak of Resistance is as cheap as it is!

I mean, even with the most powerful Cloak of Resistance you might have at a given level, you STILL need to roll around 9-12 to successfully save against one oif your weak saves. That number goes up the higher level you are, which is why the Cloak of Resistance scales faster!

You see, the Cloak of Resistance is balanced off WEAK saves, not strong saves. The game assumes you'll USUALLY succeed at making your strong saves anyway, so that's a non-issue. Fact still remains that even if you're Level 20 and have a Cloak of Resistance +5, you're STILL gonna have to roll pretty high to make saves! Trust me, the Cloak of Resistance is always one of the first magical items in the game, and although it makes a difference, it has NEVER been broken.