Immortal's Handbook continuation thread

[Eldorian]

And THAT fulfills the wild rambling tangent that picks and chooses some facts while leaving out others for the day.

I'll please ask you kindly not to insult my reasoning. Question it all you like, but insults will be responded to in kind.

You must realize that the magic system is NOT meant to wholly be like the physical combat system. In fact, from the looks of it, it's BACKWARDS. For physical combat, your defense is 10 plus numbers and your attack is a base plus numbers. For magical combat, your ATTACK starts at 10 and adds a number while your DEFENSE is a base plus a number.

That is a flawed arguement. The "backwardsness" you mention is because the game is supposed to revolve around the PCs. If a dragon breaths fire on you, the dragon doesn't roll to see if he kills you, you roll to see if you survive. Also, I'd have to say the system is a layover from earlier editions.

Is that tilted toward defenders, though? The answer: YES. Guess what? That's how it was designed! You see, another fact you convenienty left out is that spells have MUCH more damage potential than normal attacks do. There is a reason, after all, why an epic wizard could almost always defeat an epic fighter of the same level in a duel. Spells are stronger! As such, it SHOULD lean toward the defender, as the greater the chance of instant death, the easier the save should be. Not only that, but saves are used more often and need to be increased quicker. Are saves more valuable? Yes. Are they more NECESSARY? YES. THAT is why the Cloak of Resistance is as cheap as it is!

First off, the part about the epic wizard defeating the epic fighter.. have you seen how saves scale in epic levels, and compared that to the way spell DCs scale? Anything over level 40 favors fighters(base saves 11, 11, 17, compared to base spell DCs 19), unless the wizard somehow manages to incapacitate him with spells that don't allow saves. As for spells being much stronger than physical attacks, well of course. Casters get a limited number of spells per day, right? But again, a full attack from a high level warrior deals enough damage to a single opponet to put most spells to shame. And I advocate the removal of instant death spells, if you would have read my post. They force the game to require either resurections or frequent character creation. In your next statement, where you agree with me that saves are more useful (than AC I assume), you state this implies that the gear which would raise said more important stat should be cheaper. This I find stupid. If an ability is better (more valuable you say), then the ability should cost more to get (cause it has more value, you said). Isn't that obvious?

I mean, even with the most powerful Cloak of Resistance you might have at a given level, you STILL need to roll around 9-12 to successfully save against one oif your weak saves. That number goes up the higher level you are, which is why the Cloak of Resistance scales faster!

Scales faster? Do you mean to say that is why the cloak is cheaper? I mean, it would scale faster if you could get multiple types of bonus to the save, but the items cost more. Like AC. As for your 9-12, could you give an example? Using the NPCs out of the DMG, I see that, against a 9th level spell cast by a level 20 sorcerer or wizard,(DC 27) the fighter needs 9+ for Fort, a 17+ for Will and Reflex. The paladin needs a 6+ for Fort, a 12+ for relfex, and 9+ for will. They both wear +3 cloaks of resistance. If they had +5, it would the saves would still look pretty hopeless for the fighter. Now if the fighter had put more attention into his saves, and purchased several items that gave stacking bonuses to his saves...

You see, the Cloak of Resistance is balanced off WEAK saves, not strong saves. The game assumes you'll USUALLY succeed at making your strong saves anyway, so that's a non-issue. Fact still remains that even if you're Level 20 and have a Cloak of Resistance +5, you're STILL gonna have to roll pretty high to make saves! Trust me, the Cloak of Resistance is always one of the first magical items in the game, and although it makes a difference, it has NEVER been broken.

Seems to me the game assumes you'll usually fail at your weak saves, and have only a decent chance to succeed at your strong ones, if you're a fighter. I chose the paladin as my other example because he is the warrior with the strongest saves(out of the DMG), although he still would have troubles saving.

Now that thats all said, I have some more proposed changes. The problem with saving throws is that the defender has multiple ability dependance, and has one cheap item to use, while the attacker has a single ability to boost, but no items. This is not a favorable situation. Outside of saving throws, Con is useful to everybody, but almost never a primary stat, Dex is useful to most everyone, and Wisdom is useful to a select few. However, the stat that boosts casting ability is always the primary stat of a caster. There are several ways to fix this. The one Wizards attempted was to put in the increadably cheap cloak of resistance and to require every character to wear one to remain effective. This fails, however. First off, the item becomes more necessary than any other item in the game, and no one item should required to stay alive. Secondly, the single item doesn't actually succeed in protecting it's purchasers, since its the only item they can get to give a bonus to thier saves.

Some solutions to this would be to require multiple ability dependance in the offence (like psions). But this in turn simply leads to over specialization to raise your spell DCs. Or, one could eliminate the multiple ability dependance on saves, but that would take away from the elegance of the system (I, for one, like the concept of fighters being able to resist poison and dissease easier than a wizard, but the wizard able to resist mind control, and that it is the fighter's great constitution that protects him, and the wizard's indominable will.)

In truth, the best solution, I believe, is to switch all saves to the same save track, basically the "good" track minus 2 (your ability scores would still give you flavor as to what you're good at resisting), add in multiple items that raise saving throws (costing twice that as AC items), and add a single item to raise spell DCs with an enhancement bonus (costing twice that of weapons). Perhaps give all casters 2 abilities for thier casting, such as, in the case of wizards, Wisdom for spells per day, and Intelligence for spell DCs.

Oh and UK, there is a feat for +1 all saves, it's something like Luck of Heroes, out of various books, including the FR I think.

Anyways, I'm outie

Eldorian Antar

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi all!

And THAT fulfills the wild rambling tangent that picks and chooses some facts while leaving out others for the day.

I'll please ask you kindly not to insult my reasoning. Question it all you like, but insults will be responded to in kind.

Okay guys, just be cool. We are all friends here. I may have inadvertantly sparked this exchange with comments towards my mate Anubis; but you all know me by now and I am happy to give (and get) some incisive comments as long as its in moderation, and as long as its known that we are all friends at the end of the day regardless of whats said.

However, each of you may not 'know' the others quite so well, so just keep things cordial. Okay.

I don't want to have to lay the immortal smackdown on any candy asses here in my own thread.

In truth, the best solution, I believe, is to switch all saves to the same save track, basically the "good" track minus 2 (your ability scores would still give you flavor as to what you're good at resisting), add in multiple items that raise saving throws (costing twice that as AC items), and add a single item to raise spell DCs with an enhancement bonus (costing twice that of weapons). Perhaps give all casters 2 abilities for thier casting, such as, in the case of wizards, Wisdom for spells per day, and Intelligence for spell DCs.

Maybe all save progression should be the same (as you suggest) but that each class should benefit more from certain feats? ie. Wizards would benefit more from Indomitable Will etc.

Oh and UK, there is a feat for +1 all saves, it's something like Luck of Heroes, out of various books, including the FR I think.

Indeed.

Anyways, I'm outie

Later dude!

 

[Anubis]

UK, Anabstercorian hit the nail right on the head. These things aren't meant to be equal. Nothing can be perfectly balanced in a game with so many variables. There are feats in and of themselves that do not balance. I point you again to Endurance and Run, the two most useless feats of all. Yet there are others such as Devastating Critical and Epic Prowess that are obviously better than many other feats.

Instead of trying to balance the feats to make them all worth the same CR, UK, you should just worry about the system itself and leave the feats to WotC. Until we see the revisions to the core rules, we won't know a thing. You should wait for them just as I am.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

UK, Anabstercorian hit the nail right on the head. These things aren't meant to be equal.

Well I respect Anabstercorians opinion (as I do everyones); but I don't agree with him.

Nothing can be perfectly balanced in a game with so many variables.

Perfect balance is not my goal though. Relative balance is.

There are feats in and of themselves that do not balance. I point you again to Endurance and Run, the two most useless feats of all. Yet there are others such as Devastating Critical and Epic Prowess that are obviously better than many other feats.

I already said Endurance should be +10.

I agree Run is virtually useless. You could also say that the various armour proficiency feats should be a single feat.

How is Epic Prowess better than many other feats?

Devastating Critical has EIGHT prerequisites (counting epic levels).

Instead of trying to balance the feats to make them all worth the same CR, UK, you should just worry about the system itself and leave the feats to WotC.

The system is finished (though the pdf is not).

I give WotC rules an error of margin. When they cross that boundary and it affects my book, then I step in.

Until we see the revisions to the core rules, we won't know a thing. You should wait for them just as I am.

Appreciate the logic mate!

 

[Clay_More]

I think you guys are exaggerating on the Skills issue. There are far more important questions regarding the IH than the skills in the CR calculation system. For example, are there going to be any pictures of underdressed females wielding big swords?

 

[Anubis]

My idea would be to seperate the cloak into 3: Fortitude; Reflex and Will.

Therefore a Cloak of Fortitude Resistance +5 would be 25,000 GP.

Adding +5 to Reflex would cost +50,000 GP.
Adding +5 to Will would cost +50,000 GP.

So a Cloak of Total Resistance +5 would cost 125,000 GP

I don't think its 'broken' simply too cheap.

This is INSANE. You're taking one of the most important items for all characters and basically multiplying the cost by five. That's ridiculous and I'll have no part of it.

Sorry, but it's hopeless to debate with you about it. You obviously are unwilling to listen to reason and trust the balance, so why bother?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

This is INSANE.

...in the membrane?

You're taking one of the most important items for all characters and basically multiplying the cost by five.

Actually I was proposing that the Cloak of Resistance could be undervalued, and suggesting a possible revision. Though looking at it I never wanted it to go above 75,000 GP (x3) naturally.

That's ridiculous and I'll have no part of it.

Wait a second, who is this? It can't be Anubis, everyone knows he always agrees with me! You must be an imposter!?

Sorry, but it's hopeless to debate with you about it.

Have you tried to debate with me? I must have missed it. So far your position consists of you telling me (and I quote): "This is INSANE".

I am more than happy to discuss and debate any point of my work with anyone. Generally though a debate consists of both sides relating any evidence or objective supposition to help their argument.

Added to which the above (to quote myself): "idea" was simply that. An idea. A way to throw the discussion open to people.

My position is that either the Cloak of Resistance is undervalued, or the Feats which provide a Saving Throw bonus are slightly too weak.

Remember all that stuff I posted a few days ago (heres a recap):

Incidently I have just been checking Ioun Stones and they rate the Alertness feat the same price as a +2 ability score enhancement (8000 GP). Which is a little strange considering Gauntlets of Ogre Power cost 4000 GP. Though presumably because Ioun Stones don't use up any item slots (though double the cost seems a bit too much for that luxury perhaps).

So from the above we can extrapolate that a magic item that adds a feat is presumably valued at 4000 GP.

Same as (all 4000 GP):

Bracers of Armor +2
Cloak of Resistance +2 (to all saves)
Gloves of Arrow Snaring
Pearl of Power (2nd)
Periapt of proof against poison +4 (to Fort vs. poison)
[Ability Score] enhancement +2
+2 Armour

Less expensive items include (all 2000 GP):

Boots of Elvenkind (+10 skill bonus)
Cloak of Elvenkind (+10 skill bonus)
Ring of Climbing (+10 skill bonus)
Vest of Escape (+10 skill bonus)
+1 Weapon

So from the above evidence we can ascertain that under the official rules a feat could conceivably even add +14 to a skill!

Though I would maintain that the skill bonus cost should be doubled meaning a +10 skill bonus item would also cost 4000 GP.

That was part of the evidence I used to support just such a theory.

But hey! Feel free to ignore any of that pesky evidence stuff. Oh wait, you already have, my mistake.

You obviously are unwilling to listen to reason

A side effect of the INSANITY no doubt.

and trust the balance,

So you trust that the Solar's Challenge Rating of 19 is balanced then do you?

so why bother?

To bother or not to bother: that is the question. Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or to take arms against a sea of troubles...and by opposing, end them.

Aye, thats the rub.

 

[Anubis]

I was speaking of the balance of the Cloak of Resistance. As for debating, I have posted ample evidence that supports what I said. Ya' know, the whole thing about spells and attacks being backward, and how spells are more powerful and how characters need the Cloak of Resistance as standard.

Someone else said it should cost more because it's so valuable, but I say it should cost what it does because it's NECESSARY to have these things. Every little bit counts.

I have said time and again thatit is impossible to equate feats and magic items, but that is something else you dismissed. Yet intelligent weapons can bestow feats, and they ALL cost A LOT more than 4000! The Ring of Evasion (I know, it's not a feat, but it IS a feat equivilant) costs 25000. There are others in some of the non-core books as well. Ring of Fast Healing is another example, but I believe that to be HORRENDOUSLY overpowered. I would still keep the price at 3000 or more, however, and not down to where you propose. Amulet of Natural Armor and the Armor Skin feat are another example, and how about the Headband of Ferocity compared to the Remain Conscious feat? Like I said, I've given AMPLE proof.

You are trying to "fix" everything, even stuff that needs no fixing! I long for the days when you were mostly concerned with a damn good system for deities and not preoccupied with stuff that is already good.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again mate!

I was speaking of the balance of the Cloak of Resistance.

If its balanced (and it may be) then the feats are unbalanced; and vice versa.

Personally I am leaning towards the item being too cheap.

As for debating, I have posted ample evidence that supports what I said. Ya' know, the whole thing about spells and attacks being backward, and how spells are more powerful and how characters need the Cloak of Resistance as standard.

I seem to recall replying to the salient points therein.

Someone else said it should cost more because it's so valuable, but I say it should cost what it does because it's NECESSARY to have these things. Every little bit counts.

I don't see how something could be less expensive because its a necessity. In any logical society that stipulation would, if anything, drive the price up.

I have said time and again that it is impossible to equate feats and magic items, but that is something else you dismissed.

I didn't dismiss it. It may be your opinion that feats and magic items cannot be equated but logic and the mounting evidence tell us otherwise.

Yet intelligent weapons can bestow feats, and they ALL cost A LOT more than 4000!

No they don't.

Lets examine the FACTS.

The bonus cost for a semi-empathic intelligent weapon with one Primary Ability (of which some feats are contained therein) is 10,000 GP. A weapon with two primary abilities costs +15,000 GP.

The difference between the two is 5000 GP.

Meaning that one feat is valued at slightly less than a 5000 GP item because the price difference also takes into account a change from semi-empathy to empathy and also a small increase in the average ability scores possessed by the item.

So quite clearly a figure of 4000 GP is virtually spot on.

The Ring of Evasion (I know, it's not a feat, but it IS a feat equivilant) costs 25000.

I think the key part of the above sentence is "its not a feat."

There are others in some of the non-core books as well.

I'm all ears.

Ring of Fast Healing is another example, but I believe that to be HORRENDOUSLY overpowered.

Do you mean the Ring of Rapid Healing in the ELH?

The problem with Fast Healing (and Regeneration) as I showed in the CR/EL document is that they mean more for the PCs than NPCs.

I would still keep the price at 3000 or more, however, and not down to where you propose.

The price for what?

Amulet of Natural Armor and the Armor Skin feat are another example,

Yes, I still don't understand why the Amulet of Natural Armour is the same price as a Ring of Protection. It doesn't make sense, unless I am missing something.

Obviously the Amulet should be less expensive. Possibly half.

and how about the Headband of Ferocity compared to the Remain Conscious feat?

Where is this item from again? I only have the core and epic books with me right now.

Like I said, I've given AMPLE proof.

Ample proof to validate my theories. Thanks.

You are trying to "fix" everything, even stuff that needs no fixing!

Once again, I think you are blowing things way out of proportion. I have changed about a half dozen regular feats; the same number of epic feats and a similar number of magic items. I don't see myself as trying to fix everything just tighten up the balance issues.

I long for the days when you were mostly concerned with a damn good system for deities and not preoccupied with stuff that is already good.

I appreciate the concern mate, but the 'damn good system for deities' has been simmering for almost a year now.

 

[Anubis]

See, that's why I'm sick of this debate, because the only thing you do is dismiss what I say. My proof goes against you in every way possible!

It is IMPOSSIBLE to equate feats and magic items, and I have shown that over and over again, and I think you are the ONLY person playing this game that thinks otherwise. Trying to equate the two is a lesson in futility indeed.

I have shown the proof, and you have shown NONE. The only thing you say is "since the feat does this, this item should cost this" when you should NOT equate the two to begin with! Items and items, feats are feats, they are not meant to be compared, contrasted, or balanced against each other, but rather within their own groupings.

All armor boosting items save for armor and shields goes by the 2000 increment, whereas saves go by the 1000 increment. There you go, plain and simple. That is perfectly balanced as-is. If it weren't, you would see as much complaining about that as you do about Heal and Harm. Yet that is not the case! If it was unbalanced, underpriced, or whatever, it'd be obvious through playtesting. Playtesting, however gives ZERO support to your theories thus far.

All the logic in the world will not save you if it doesn't follow through IN THE GAME.