Immortal's Handbook continuation thread

[Dark Wolf 97]

A ratio:

1 feat = X
1 item with in built feat = .75 * X

Of course, then you have to figure what X is.

Just my 2 cents

 

[Impeesa]

So by Krusty's logic... my car cost me $200... it's an old POS, but it runs. It did, however, come with a nice set of winter tires. Those alone probably cost a little over $200. Therefore, when we deduct the price of what we can equate to real values, we can find the value of the car itself to be... roughly -$100. Well, it's not the greatest car in the world, but I'd hardly have to pay someone to take it... Conclusion: Can't compare apples and monkeys. Some things just can't be equated, and sometimes the laws of logical implication just don't apply. And believe me, I have the utmost of faith in your approach - I'm studying computer science and physics, taking what you know and working from there is the most basic principle - but sometimes it is immediately obvious from the results that that was the wrong way to go about it. Then again, it's been said that one should never let actual data get in the way of an elegant theory...

--Impeesa--

 

[Clay_More]

Just in case all you guys wanted some extra ammo for the Flaming, this thread has plenty of Flaming ideas & advice

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?threadid=39932&perpage=40&pagenumber=1


Anyways, howdy again Upper_Krust. Havent said much here for a while, was waiting to see if things were getting over by themselves

Anyways, I was actually wondering about the weapon / armor magical qualities. Is there specific market price + that will be the minimum for them (like, no armor / weapon qualities that are lower than +6 or something).
Did you find alot of usable qualities amongst the many posted here? I think I saw a couple myself I could use, off course with alterations, but still.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

See, that's why I'm sick of this debate,

I was just starting to enjoy myself!

because the only thing you do is dismiss what I say.

I replied to every single shred of evidence you submitted! I couldn't possibly be more accomodating!

My proof goes against you in every way possible!

You were WRONG about the cost of feats in Intelligent Items. I proved that.

You admitted that Evasion was not a feat.

I explained why Fast Healing (and Regeneration) cost more.

I explained why the Amulet of Natural Armour was incorrectly priced.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to equate feats and magic items, and I have shown that over and over again,

You have shown nothing of the sort.

It is ludicrous to suggest they cannot be contrasted and compared when on so many occasions their effects cross pollenate, and by looking at that evidence we can detect a pattern.

and I think you are the ONLY person playing this game that thinks otherwise.

Appeal to the authority of the masses. It doesn't matter whether one person thinks it or a million people think it. All that matters is the facts, and in this case the evidence all favours my theory.

If it didn't, or someone proves it wrong (and by that I don't just mean say its wrong) then I will be the first to stand up and be counted. Its not about whos right or whos wrong, its about the truth.

Trying to equate the two is a lesson in futility indeed.

I haven't just tried, I have succeeded. The only thing thats futile is resistance.

I have shown the proof, and you have shown NONE.

Are you sure you're following the right thread!?

Every bit of evidence to date supports my theory!

The only thing you say is "since the feat does this, this item should cost this" when you should NOT equate the two to begin with! Items and items, feats are feats, they are not meant to be compared, contrasted, or balanced against each other, but rather within their own groupings.

Nonsense. Perhaps if only a single feat or item did the same thing then we couldn't contrast them to determine an overall figure, but all the evidence (multiple feats and items) points towards a single feat placed in a magic item costing (approximately) 4000 GP. Possibly slightly more or less, but remember we are looking for relative numbers here not an exact figure.

All armor boosting items save for armor and shields goes by the 2000 increment, whereas saves go by the 1000 increment. There you go, plain and simple. That is perfectly balanced as-is.

The Amulet of Natural Armour should cost the same as Armour and Shield bonuses. Only a Deflection (Ring of Protection) AC bonus should be doubled (because it works against Touch spells etc.)

If it weren't, you would see as much complaining about that as you do about Heal and Harm. Yet that is not the case! If it was unbalanced, underpriced, or whatever, it'd be obvious through playtesting. Playtesting, however gives ZERO support to your theories thus far.

You don't need playtesting when the answer is as plain as the nose on your face.

All the logic in the world will not save you if it doesn't follow through IN THE GAME.

Forgive me, but I really don't see how modifying the price of a Cloak of Resistance (or vice versa slighly altering a few feats) is going to throw the game'out of whack'.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Dark Wolf mate!

A ratio:

1 feat = X
1 item with in built feat = .75 * X

Of course, then you have to figure what X is.

Just my 2 cents

Well if we assume a feat should cost (approx.) 4000 GP. Then each time you create an item with a feat you should add +4000 GP.

The caveat for feat strings exists though.

Should a feat require another as a prerequisite then each time you add a feat to that string you should tackle it as follows.

Feat # x Feat # x 4000 GP

eg. (Cleave) 1 (feat) x 1 (feat) x 4000 GP = 4000 GP item
(Cleave & Great Cleave) 2 (feats) x 2 (feats) x 4000 GP = 16,000 GP item
(Cleave & Great Cleave & Supreme Cleave) 3 (feats) x 3 (feats) x 4000 GP = 36,000 GP item
4 feat string costs 64,000 GP
5 feat string costs 100,000 GP

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Impeesa mate!

So by Krusty's logic... my car cost me $200... it's an old POS, but it runs. It did, however, come with a nice set of winter tires. Those alone probably cost a little over $200. Therefore, when we deduct the price of what we can equate to real values, we can find the value of the car itself to be... roughly -$100. Well, it's not the greatest car in the world, but I'd hardly have to pay someone to take it... Conclusion: Can't compare apples and monkeys.

Firstly I am assuming the car was bought second hand, which of course makes your argument null and void. I could sell you my house for $100, but that doesn't mean its worth $100 does it!?

Likewise you could purchase a +5 Vorpal Sword for 100 GP; but that doesn't mean its worth 100 GP.

Theres a difference between what you can actually pay for something and its generic value (which is dictated by the overarching economy).

Some things just can't be equated, and sometimes the laws of logical implication just don't apply.

They can be equated if they have a common denominator. Such as:

a) A Market Price.
b) A Challenge Rating modifier.

And believe me, I have the utmost of faith in your approach -

I appreciate the love dude!

I'm studying computer science and physics, taking what you know and working from there is the most basic principle - but sometimes it is immediately obvious from the results that that was the wrong way to go about it. Then again, it's been said that one should never let actual data get in the way of an elegant theory...

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Clay_More mate!

Just in case all you guys wanted some extra ammo for the Flaming, this thread has plenty of Flaming ideas & advice

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?threadid=39932&perpage=40&pagenumber=1

Funny stuff!

Anyways, howdy again Upper_Krust. Havent said much here for a while, was waiting to see if things were getting over by themselves

Anyways, I was actually wondering about the weapon / armor magical qualities. Is there specific market price + that will be the minimum for them (like, no armor / weapon qualities that are lower than +6 or something).

No.

I considered something like that, but there were a handful of relevant powers that start below +6 and scale upwards. There were also a few abilities that I initially thought were epic but upon testing found more to suit non-epic status.

Of course that said I still have something like five times the amount of epic weapon powers that are in the ELH.

Did you find alot of usable qualities amongst the many posted here? I think I saw a couple myself I could use, off course with alterations, but still.

I am sure I found one or two. A lot of the time I already had a similar ability detailed. A few however, were simply bigger numbers tacked on, which is not something I was really looking for. Essentially I go for a single idea and then detail it at its lowest common denominator.

I have all the weapon powers detailed but I am still toying with a few armour ideas.

 

[Anabstercorian]

Hee hee.

Yep, and I wrote one of them! Er, I think.

At any rate, while I'm not sure I agree with all of your results, Upper_Krust, the methodology you've used to produce them seems sound enough that I'm definately interested in seeing how they work out - The Immortals Handbook is firmly on my purchase list.

Speaking of which, are there Greater Speed enhancements, offering an additional 2 or more attacks to the wielder?

 

[Anubis]

UK, that's the thing. I HAVE proven you wrong and you have yet to admit it. I have given ample proof that these things can't be equated, and everybody here save for you has seen that! By your reasoning, a Ring of Devastating Critical would cost a mere 4000 gp, which is ludicrous!

I say again, you CAN'T put a price on ANY feats!

 

[Eldorian]

I, for one, disagree with you anubis. First off, i've seen nothing that is 'proof' of anything you claim. As for the ring of devistating critical, I'm sure the more prereqs a feat has, the more valuable it is, and that such a system will be incorperated. Personally I think epic and non epic feats should be on a slightly different scale. Perhaps a system similiar to caster level, except this will be character level, that is the level required to get the feat, and spell level, in this case how many feat prereqs it has, and these two quantities make the magic item's cost that duplicates the feat. As for your outragious claim that all feats shouldn't be equal and that there shouldn't be a system for putting feats into magic items, i think the facts go the other way, mate. One of the goals of 3e was to balance the system, because balanced systems are more fun to play. Anyway, its mostly pointless to argue with you. You'll simply claim this is a wild tangent that adresses none of the facts, and then claim that you have unrefutable proof about anything you want to prove.

Eldorian Antar