Immortals Handbook: Gods & Monsters 5E Early Preview (Feedback encouraged)

[Upper_Krust]

Hi all,

The following 2 page PDF is an early preview of my take on an ancient red dragon (I'll post up one of the actual Gods or new monsters in a week or so) and in fact this dragon henchman of Hephaestus may not make it into the final book.

So I am just looking for general feedback on the layout and the few of the game mechanics - like my suggestions for the Bloodied mechanic (too much?).

I have attached the PDF. The page images are 3.7 and 5 Meg (respectively) so wasn't sure if that was too big for posting here on ENWorld.

 

[Upper_Krust]

 

[Upper_Krust]

 

[Lordnightshade2]

Unless you intended for this, its breath weapon is far far too weak. An average of 44 dmg in a 90 foot cone or 88 damage on a single target is nothing. By level 20 the pcs will have resistance at least against fire since its the most common resistance and 22 or 44 dmg against even a wizard is something they can easily shrug off. Heck even the normal ancient reds 91 dmg is reduced to 45 by pcs at this level and thats barely a threat considering the breath weapon is the main weapon of 5e dragons and can only be used once every 5 rounds on average. And at least with that attack it can hit all the PCs potential while focus fire not only does less damage but also targets one person, because why on earth would the pcs stack on top of on another.

Also a dragon should if it can help it always be flying, since its their main defensive strategy to avoid the bulk of dmg something like a barbarian or martial specialised fighter should do so its weak spot is extremely dangerous for the dragon since ranged attacks should be the main attacks against a dragon anyway.

Legendary actions should be buffed. Reduce the tail cost to 1 since that way it can atleast make their full attack and 2 tails strikes and because the tail strike is atleast in my view far less impt than the other two legendary actions it has. Like why on earth would it ever choose an attack over reducing giving a foe disadavantage on their attack and making a foe more suspectible for their breath weapon. Atleast with a tail as one it can buff its dmg output and debuff its opponents in one round.

Flight actions are good and the bonus actions allow the dragon to choose between frightful or bonus damage so thats good since it can allow a dragon whose foes have succeeded the save to be able to buff their attack.

Also if this is a champion of a god shouldnt it have some trait to show that the god has given them its blessing. Its current skillset seems like something any ancient red could have. Maybe give it some spell casting or heck have it equip some magic armour hephaetus made for it or have its claws be enchanted since its claws and tail and what not appear to lack the magical weapons trait. Which admitted dragons dont have but it is suppose to be a champion of a god so it should be far stronger than a typical ancient red.

 

[Lordnightshade2]

Also, why did you reduce its legendary resistance and legendary actions to 2 instead of three? Seems like an odd debuff

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Lordnightshade2!

Unless you intended for this, its breath weapon is far far too weak. An average of 44 dmg in a 90 foot cone or 88 damage on a single target is nothing. By level 20 the pcs will have resistance at least against fire since its the most common resistance and 22 or 44 dmg against even a wizard is something they can easily shrug off. Heck even the normal ancient reds 91 dmg is reduced to 45 by pcs at this level and thats barely a threat considering the breath weapon is the main weapon of 5e dragons and can only be used once every 5 rounds on average. And at least with that attack it can hit all the PCs potential while focus fire not only does less damage but also targets one person, because why on earth would the pcs stack on top of on another.

Okay lets break this down.

1. The breath weapon can be used in conjunction with its bite and claws. Its no longer an either/or scenario.
2. Once bloodied, the dragons breath weapon jumps to 80/160* damage.
3. Insidious Gaze (Legendary Ability) let's the dragon strip away Fire Resistance.
4. Note this Ancient Red Dragon rates in at CR 20 (and its balanced for CR 20...even though it does far more damage than the official dragon stats).

*160 is higher than a maximised 26d6 from the official Ancient Red dragon.

Also a dragon should if it can help it always be flying, since its their main defensive strategy to avoid the bulk of dmg something like a barbarian or martial specialised fighter should do so its weak spot is extremely dangerous for the dragon since ranged attacks should be the main attacks against a dragon anyway.

Note how many of the dragon's attacks knock a target prone, grapple and throw them or swat them away (if problematic). Plus Smoke Snort can give a temporary Disadvantage debuff.

Flight is certainly an advantage, but increasingly less of an advantage the higher level the PCs are since they will likely also have flight or at least access to it.

The Dragon has Damage Threshold 20, so it needed a weak spot somewhere.

Legendary actions should be buffed. Reduce the tail cost to 1 since that way it can at least make their full attack and 2 tails strikes and because the tail strike is atleast in my view far less impt than the other two legendary actions it has. Like why on earth would it ever choose an attack over reducing giving a foe disadavantage on their attack and making a foe more suspectible for their breath weapon. At least with a tail as one it can buff its dmg output and debuff its opponents in one round.

I'll consider it. I have a specific way of balancing various attacks/abilities as Legendary Actions for monsters. I do admit they were initially set up to have 3 Legendary Actions (the reason its dropped to 2 is because of the CR drop, with Legendary Actions increasing by 1 per 4 CR after 13 - I'll think about buffing it to CR 21).

Flight actions are good and the bonus actions allow the dragon to choose between frightful or bonus damage so thats good since it can allow a dragon whose foes have succeeded the save to be able to buff their attack.

Thanks.

Also if this is a champion of a god shouldnt it have some trait to show that the god has given them its blessing.

That's a good idea.

In my defense, this monster is something of an after-thought, rather than a true champion. That said, it does guard the door to his workshop, so by rights it should have something unique to it...maybe a breastplate that covers its weak-spot (until some Rogue cuts the straps).

Its current skillset seems like something any ancient red could have.

True and technically that was my goal, simply to see what my take on an Ancient Red Dragon would be.

Maybe give it some spell casting or heck have it equip some magic armour hephaetus made for it or have its claws be enchanted since its claws and tail and what not appear to lack the magical weapons trait. Which admitted dragons dont have but it is suppose to be a champion of a god so it should be far stronger than a typical ancient red.

All monsters with Legendary Actions treated as if 'magical' for the purposes of attacks - I'm trying to keep the stat-blocks to 1 page (where possible, hence that wasn't mentioned).

Ardalus is the adopted Son of Hephaestus, I agree it should have some unique item/gift to set it beyond a typical Ancient Red (albeit I had only designed it as an Ancient Red to contrast my methods with the official counterpart).

Thank you very much for the feedback. Greatly appreciated.

 

[dave2008]

@Upper_Krust , thank you for sharing! Here are my thoughts:

1. Overall design and formatting seem good. The stat block border seems to be a bit much to me, but it also helps to set it apart. Maybe make the border a little thinner. It is odd that the legendary actions are not in the statblock proper.
2. Damage Threshold. I am not a fanning of a mechanic having the same name as a mechanic in 5e, but that functions differently. I would either use the 5e mechanic or change the name.
   1. EDIT: this dragon's threshold seems very high and would really disadvantage martials. How are you figuring this in your CR calculations?
3. Bloodied. I am not a fan of a universal mechanic for the bloodied condition. I prefer the specific monster / feature use in 4e. For instance, this particular version (max damage given and received) isn't something I would want for every monster, as I don't particularly like it, but might make sense for a specific monster.
4. Saving Throws. I believe a dragon should have good saving throws (I tend give them 3-5), but this guy as none. That seems odd to me.
5. Weak Spot. That seems fun, reminds me of you 4e work. How do you see these impacting CR? Presonally I would want a creature with a weak spot to hit above average on CR, and it comes down to its CR if you get the weak spot.
6. Bonus Actions. I think both make some sense being moved to bonus actions. May have to think about this some more though. Not 100% sold that it isn't better to just wrap these into the attack action.
7. Flight Actions. I like the idea of these, but wish they were off to the side and not in the stat block. A side bar like "dragon magic" or "hag coven." This would allow space for more dragon specific abilities.
8. Breath Weapon. I like having two versions (I do something similar), but the damage is to low. Remove it from the multiattack and allow to do the full rounds DPR. Or make it charge up a round and do two rounds worth of DPR! If you want another breath attack the it can use every round give it a lesser version too (similar to this one), but it needs a really scary breath weapon. This is not it.

Overall nice work and look forward to the deity statblock. That said, I question some for your "new" mechanics and I think this dragon could use another pass. Thank you for sharing!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Also, why did you reduce its legendary resistance and legendary actions to 2 instead of three? Seems like an odd debuff

I sort of answered this in the previous post. I assign Legendary Actions based on Challenge Rating with 1 at 13 and then 1 more every 4 points of Challenge rating. I converted* the Ancient Red to CR 20 and thus it only had two Legendary Actions.

With official 'Epic' Monsters I either reduce their CR to 80% (for non-unique types) or Re-balance them completely (for Unique individuals - so Orcus would still be CR 26 but I'd fix all the damage numbers). This red dragon sort of got both treatments as I was just experimenting with the design.

 

[Upper_Krust]

thank you for sharing!

Hey there dave buddy!

...a lot more to come soon enough.

Here are my thoughts:

1. Overall design and formatting seem good. The stat block border seems to be a bit much to me, but it also helps to set it apart. Maybe make the border a little thinner.

Yes I have tried a few different variations - technically the stat-block border was designed as a red dragon (hence the horns). I just re-coloured it to fit the gold theme. the red clashed a bit with the gold page flourishes. It may be a bit strong, I'm about 75% in favour of keeping it at this point.

1. It is odd that the legendary actions are not in the statblock proper.

I know - this dragon's stat-block was so lengthy they spilled onto the next column. I DO have a variation of the border that encompasses the the lower half of column 3 - I am still tweaking it though. Really trying to keep stat-blocks to 1 column (unless unavoidable).

1. Damage Threshold. I am not a fanning of a mechanic having the same name as a mechanic in 5e, but that functions differently. I would either use the 5e mechanic or change the name.

I thought that was the same as the 5E mechanic. The only difference is with regards crits/weak spots.

1. Bloodied. I am not a fan of a universal mechanic for the bloodied condition. I prefer the specific monster / feature use in 4e. For instance, this particular version (max damage given and received) isn't something I would want for every monster, as I don't particularly like it, but might make sense for a specific monster.

I agree and that's how I do it. However, for "generic" monsters I needed a fallback 'default' version of the Bloodied Mechanic. Different monsters and individuals have variable interpretations of it.

1. Saving Throws. I believe a dragon should have good saving throws (I tend give them 3-5), but this guy as none. That seems odd to me.

That's weird - I wonder did they slide behind the ability scores when I re-sized that table.

1. Weak Spot. That seems fun, reminds me of you 4e work. How do you see these impacting CR? Presonally I would want a creature with a weak spot to hit above average on CR, and it comes down to its CR if you get the weak spot.

To make a weak spot interesting I think you should generally have to put yourself in harm's way to properly get at it. Hence you have to risk an extra trampling attack (in melee at least).

As regards extra damage - this dragon is already dealing the absolute maximum a CR 20 creature can do (and I still probably rounded up a fraction).

So the weak spot basically just gives a back door out the massive benefit of the Damage Threshold.

1. Bonus Actions. I think both make some sense being moved to bonus actions. May have to think about this some more though. Not 100% sold that it isn't better to just wrap these into the attack action.

They just seem like something the dragon can do with minimum effort.

1. Flight Actions. I like the idea of these, but wish they were off to the side and not in the stat block. A side bar like "dragon magic" or "hag coven." This would allow space for more dragon specific abilities.

I can maybe swap those with the Legendary Actions with some shuffling about.

1. Breath Weapon. I like having two versions (I do something similar), but the damage is to low. Remove it from the multiattack and allow to do the full rounds DPR. Or make it charge up a round and do two rounds worth of DPR! If you want another breath attack the it can use every round give it a lesser version too (similar to this one), but it needs a really scary breath weapon. This is not it.

I addressed this when replying to Lordnightshade2. (I know you posted this before my reply to him went up).

But essentially by allowing the dragon to have its breath weapon in its multi-attack, plus Insidious Gaze, plus max damage when Bloodied, plus its already at its damage potential for CR 20, overall its still vastly more effective. But I could be wrong.

Overall nice work and look forward to the deity statblock. That said, I question some for your "new" mechanics and I think this dragon could use another pass. Thank you for sharing!

I'm testing the waters with a few ideas (like the Bloodied damage).

Valid feedback. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

 

[dave2008]

Hey there dave buddy!

...a lot more to come soon enough.

I look forward to it!

I thought that was the same as the 5E mechanic. The only difference is with regards crits/weak spots.

I don't have the book in front me, but damage Threshold does not reduce damage in 5e. It is the amount of damage you must do, to cause any damage. And if you do any damage above that threshold, you do all damage you inflicted. So, per standard 5e, if I hit the dragon for 15 damage it does nothing, but if I hit it for 21 damage it inflicts 21 damage.

I agree and that's how I do it. However, for "generic" monsters I needed a fallback 'default' version of the Bloodied Mechanic. Different monsters and individuals have variable interpretations of it.

Yes, I guessed that. My point was I don't like a "default" mechanic in general and in particular I don't like this one.

To make a weak spot interesting I think you should generally have to put yourself in harm's way to properly get at it. Hence you have to risk an extra trampling attack (in melee at least).

Yes I agree, that is what I was suggesting. Increase the risk to get a benefit that is what I was saying, just more generally, not this specific example. I think we are on the same page.

They just seem like something the dragon can do with minimum effort.

I agree, but it is costing this dragon more effort (a bonus action) than the standard dragon which can just do them as part of their multiattack action.

I addressed this when replying to Lordnightshade2. (I know you posted this before my reply to him went up).

But essentially by allowing the dragon to have its breath weapon in its multi-attack, plus Insidious Gaze, plus max damage when Bloodied, plus its already at its damage potential for CR 20, overall its still vastly more effective. But I could be wrong.

I read it after I posted, but I don't agree with your approach. Particularly because I don't like your bloodied mechanic and wouldn't use it. So then my statblock under performs.

Regarding insidious gaze: I am not sure how you figured this into your CR, but I am of the opinion it shouldn't. At this CR/level the monsters need to be able to do the listed damage.

I am fine with the dragon having a breath attack that it can use every round, that is something I give my dragons, but not at the cost of having a really powerful breath weapon. The breath weapon is an iconic dragon ability. I already think it is to weak in 5e and you made it weaker. I would like to see how you can make it more impressive, not less so. More weaker attacks just doesn't say "dragon" to me.

I'm testing the waters with a few ideas (like the Bloodied damage).

Valid feedback. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

Test away - always happy to give feedback.

 

[dave2008]

PS I forgot to mention that I like the idea of putting Legendary resistances as part of the "Resistances" as opposed to a trait, saves some space.

 

[dave2008]

FYI, here is what I did with my Ancient Red Dragon's breath attacks:

Spoiler: Breath Attacks

Fire Blast. The dragon exhales a ball of fire that streaks to a point of its choice it can see within 160 feet of it, it then explodes into a 10-foot radius ball of flames. Each creature in the area must make DC 25 Dexterity saving throw, taking 27 (5d10) fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.

Breath Weapons (1/Rest). The dragon uses one of the following breath weapons.

• Fire Breath. The dragon exhales fire in a 160-foot cone or eight 20-foot-by-20-foot contiguous areas within 80 feet of it. . Each creature in that area must make a DC 25 Dexterity saving throw, taking 115 (21d10) fire damage and be incapacitated until the end of its turn on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. Additionally, any magic or active spell of 8th level or lower in the area ends.
• Fire Beam. The dragon exhales a beam of fire in a 220-foot line that is 5 feet wide. The first creature in the line must make a DC 25 Dexterity saving throw, taking 93 (17d10) fire damage plus 93 (17d10) force damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. Additionally, each creature within a 15-foot radius of the initial target must make a DC 27 Dexterity saving throw, taking 11 (2d10) force damage and 11 (2d10) thunder damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. A creature reduced to 0 hit points by this attack dies and is reduced to a pile of ash.

Recharge. The dragon recharges its breath weapon and it can use it on its next turn.

Of course these could be simplified (my dragons are overly complex at the moment).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey dave amigo!

I look forward to it!

Its starting to shape up nicely.

I don't have the book in front me, but damage Threshold does not reduce damage in 5e. It is the amount of damage you must do, to cause any damage. And if you do any damage above that threshold, you do all damage you inflicted. So, per standard 5e, if I hit the dragon for 15 damage it does nothing, but if I hit it for 21 damage it inflicts 21 damage.

That is quite similar but I better change it just to be on the safe side. Thanks.

Yes, I guessed that. My point was I don't like a "default" mechanic in general and in particular I don't like this one.

The main point to this new Bloodied mechanic is twofold:

1. Eliminate those encounters where the PCs know they will win the battle and are just going through the motions, with the monster now doing MAX damage it gives them a new problem to worry about.
2. Replicate that "a tiger is at its most dangerous when boxed into a corner" mentality.

Yes I agree, that is what I was suggesting. Increase the risk to get a benefit that is what I was saying, just more generally, not this specific example. I think we are on the same page.

Also means I don't have to think up 100 different "When Bloodied" game mechanics.

I agree, but it is costing this dragon more effort (a bonus action) than the standard dragon which can just do them as part of their multiattack action.

True, but I was just thinking its going to use Frightful Presence once at the start of the fight (likely flying in to attack) and then not use it again (unless reinforcements show up).

I read it after I posted, but I don't agree with your approach. Particularly because I don't like your bloodied mechanic and wouldn't use it. So then my statblock under performs.

Mathematically speaking overall it doesn't under-perform. In fact this dragon (even at 4 CR lower), is doing around 50-60% more damage each round.

However, that said, I understand what you mean, the breath weapon is THE iconic dragon breath attack but its 3 points lower.

In my defense if I make it any higher damaging then it gets a bit crazy. In tandem with the Bloodied mechanic* the dragon could ALREADY deal a hypothetical flat 320 fire damage (with no chance of resistance/immunity against fire). Which is 3.5 TIMES the damage of the official Ancient Red Dragon.

*which I know you don't want to use.

Regarding insidious gaze: I am not sure how you figured this into your CR, but I am of the opinion it shouldn't. At this CR/level the monsters need to be able to do the listed damage.

Okay so what's the point of Resistance/Immunity then?

This is the standard mechanic I use for immortals (although they do it automatically if they have the portfolio) to erase immunity/resistance.

Get hit once, Immunity drops to Resistance, get hit twice, lose resistance, get hit third time you are vulnerable to [insert energy type].

I am fine with the dragon having a breath attack that it can use every round, that is something I give my dragons, but not at the cost of having a really powerful breath weapon. The breath weapon is an iconic dragon ability. I already think it is to weak in 5e and you made it weaker. I would like to see how you can make it more impressive, not less so. More weaker attacks just doesn't say "dragon" to me.

Lol, this mere CR 20 Ancient Red Dragon is comparable to a CR 0 House Cat compared to stuff I have in the book.

But lets just look at this breath weapon for a second, it deals 88 damage which is 3 less than the 91 of the official Ancient Red dragon - which cannot attack when it uses its breath weapon.

...and that 88 damage is still greater than every other single attack and breath weapon in the Monster Manual (unless I am missing something).

Test away - always happy to give feedback.

Thanks so much amigo.

 

[Upper_Krust]

PS I forgot to mention that I like the idea of putting Legendary resistances as part of the "Resistances" as opposed to a trait, saves some space.

Cheers buddy - I think there is a bit too much (unnecessary) repeated text in a lot of stat-blocks I see and I am trying to cut as much of that out as possible. Epic gaming is already a bit more complicated, I'm trying to boil it all down to the essentials.

 

[Upper_Krust]

FYI, here is what I did with my Ancient Red Dragon's breath attacks:

Spoiler: Breath Attacks

Fire Blast. The dragon exhales a ball of fire that streaks to a point of its choice it can see within 160 feet of it, it then explodes into a 10-foot radius ball of flames. Each creature in the area must make DC 25 Dexterity saving throw, taking 27 (5d10) fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.

Breath Weapons (1/Rest). The dragon uses one of the following breath weapons.

• Fire Breath. The dragon exhales fire in a 160-foot cone or eight 20-foot-by-20-foot contiguous areas within 80 feet of it. . Each creature in that area must make a DC 25 Dexterity saving throw, taking 115 (21d10) fire damage and be incapacitated until the end of its turn on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. Additionally, any magic or active spell of 8th level or lower in the area ends.
• Fire Beam. The dragon exhales a beam of fire in a 220-foot line that is 5 feet wide. The first creature in the line must make a DC 25 Dexterity saving throw, taking 93 (17d10) fire damage plus 93 (17d10) force damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. Additionally, each creature within a 15-foot radius of the initial target must make a DC 27 Dexterity saving throw, taking 11 (2d10) force damage and 11 (2d10) thunder damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. A creature reduced to 0 hit points by this attack dies and is reduced to a pile of ash.

Recharge. The dragon recharges its breath weapon and it can use it on its next turn.

Of course these could be simplified (my dragons are overly complex at the moment).

Your CR 26 dragon: 41 + 17 + 31 + 31 (110) OR 186 fire/force. Averaging 148 or given you need a full round to recharge (which is its own action) your dragons DPR output is reduced to an average 110+186/3 = 98

My CR 20 dragon: 36 + 26, + 24 + 24 (110) PLUS 88 = 198, Averaging 139* (Assuming BW usable once per 3 rounds)

*NB. CR 20 monster damage range listed as 123-140 in the DMG.

So unless I am not understanding your Recharge mechanic (which is a possibility?) my CR 20 dragon seems to be dealing 41% more damage per round than your CR 26 dragon.

 

[dave2008]

Your CR 26 dragon: 41 + 17 + 31 + 31 (110) OR 186 fire/force. Averaging 148 or given you need a full round to recharge (which is its own action) your dragons DPR output is reduced to an average 110+186/3 = 98

My CR 20 dragon: 36 + 26, + 24 + 24 (110) PLUS 88 = 198, Averaging 139* (Assuming BW usable once per 3 rounds)

*NB. CR 20 monster damage range listed as 123-140 in the DMG.

So unless I am not understanding your Recharge mechanic (which is a possibility?) my CR 20 dragon seems to be dealing 41% more damage per round than your CR 26 dragon.

Actually you completely misunderstood the point as it had nothing to do with comparing DPR. I was simply trying to show how I handled the idea of having an at-will breath weapon (fire blast) and a more powerful traditional breath weapon (with 2 options). That and my dragons breath weapon does 208 damage (vs 88) That can outright kill even high level PCs if they fail a save, and that is what I personally want to see in a dragon's breath weapon.

However, I also didn't give you enough information to calculate my dragons DPR (unless you went to the link). You somehow came up with a DPR of 98 when in reality it is 185, so 33% more damage (which tracks with a 30% increase in CR).

Round 1: fire beam (208) + tail (36) = 244
Round 2: bite (58) + claw (31) + claw (31) + tail (36) = 156
Round 3: bite (58) + claw (31) + claw (31) + tail (36) = 156

DPR: (244 + 156 + 156)/3 = 185.3333

EDIT: To clarify the breath weapon recharge is a separate action. You don't have to take it. If you want to be real nasty, use the breath weapon on a flyby (with strafing) and then fly away and recharge out of range, and repeat until everything is burned to ash.

 

[dave2008]

That is quite similar but I better change it just to be on the safe side. Thanks.

No worries. It is similar, that is why a I agree a change will prevent some confussion.

The main point to this new Bloodied mechanic is twofold:

1. Eliminate those encounters where the PCs know they will win the battle and are just going through the motions, with the monster now doing MAX damage it gives them a new problem to worry about.
2. Replicate that "a tiger is at its most dangerous when boxed into a corner" mentality.

I get the idea, but it is not a problem I personally feel I need a general rule on.

Okay so what's the point of Resistance/Immunity then?

To be clear, I am saying a monster should have a method to overcome the PCs resistance / immunity to main attack. Not all attacks. If a monsters threat level depends on its fire attacks, it should have a method to ensure that damage gets through, generally speaking. It seems you agree as you also gave the dragon a method to overcome fire immunity and resistance.

It is a strange thing when your talking immortal levels I agree. I was looking at this from a mortal perspective as this is something mortal PCs could tackle. I am handling it a different way in my immortals game. An immortal of a higher tier downgrades a creatures resistance or immunity by one step for each tier it is above. So a greater god ignores the resistances of an intermediate god and the immunities of lesser god.

But lets just look at this breath weapon for a second, it deals 88 damage which is 3 less than the 91 of the official Ancient Red dragon - which cannot attack when it uses its breath weapon.

I wouldn't try to compare yourself to the MM. And I am less interested in DPR because...

...and that 88 damage is still greater than every other single attack and breath weapon in the Monster Manual (unless I am missing something).

...it is weak sauce to a level 20 fighter with 200+ hit points. The breath weapon should be kickass deadly IMO. Now, I agree you get there with your bloodied mechanic, which is awesome, but as I have said before I have issues that mechanic (which I won't go into here). I think it works with your design holistically, I just don't like that it relies on your bloodied mechanic.

Thanks so much amigo.

Your welcome. I enjoy the discussion.

 

[dave2008]

One more thing, I thought you might like this from my Great Wyrm Red Dragon:

Breath Weapons (1/Rest). The dragon uses one of the following breath weapons. Additionally, targets that fail their saving throw by 10 or more (DC 17) take maximum damage from these attacks.

That means on a "critical" failure of the save the target will take 540 damage form the Fire Beam.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey buddy, thanks so much for the continued feedback.

Actually you completely misunderstood the point as it had nothing to do with comparing DPR. I was simply trying to show how I handled the idea of having an at-will breath weapon (fire blast) and a more powerful traditional breath weapon (with 2 options). That and my dragons breath weapon does 208 damage (vs 88) That can outright kill even high level PCs if they fail a save, and that is what I personally want to see in a dragon's breath weapon.

However, I also didn't give you enough information to calculate my dragons DPR (unless you went to the link). You somehow came up with a DPR of 98 when in reality it is 185, so 33% more damage (which tracks with a 30% increase in CR).

I did go the link but it was after midnight and I made a few mistakes.

Your dragon's base damage is 120 (I miscounted it as 110 last night). I don't factor Legendary Abilities though so I removed that for the purpose of this argument - both of us have a tail attack, yours deals 8 more damage.

Incidentally at CR 26 your dragon should be dealing 81% more damage, not just 30%.

Round 1: fire beam (208) + tail (36) = 244
Round 2: bite (58) + claw (31) + claw (31) + tail (36) = 156
Round 3: bite (58) + claw (31) + claw (31) + tail (36) = 156

DPR: (244 + 156 + 156)/3 = 185.3333

EDIT: To clarify the breath weapon recharge is a separate action. You don't have to take it. If you want to be real nasty, use the breath weapon on a flyby (with strafing) and then fly away and recharge out of range, and repeat until everything is burned to ash.

But the exact mechanics of the beam attack recharge confuses me.

As I see it. The dragon can either attack (melee) OR use its breath attack. The Recharge Action (to recharge the breath weapon is a full round action).

So
R1: Beam Breath (+ Tail)
R2: Physical attacks (+ Tail)
R3: EITHER Physical Attacks OR use the Recharge Action (+ tail)
R4: EITHER Physical Attacks OR use Beam Breath IF it used Recharge in R3

So your DPR could average 185 over 3 rounds. But if it wants to use its breath again in the fight technically it takes a full round of the dragon doing next to nothing.

Also I am not counting that extra 2d10/2d10 blast echo since it doesn't hit the original target. That's a false inflation of the original damage.

So before factoring Legendary Abilities your dragon has a DPR of 142 (Beam + Melee + Melee) over 3 rounds. But if it goes Beam + Melee + Recharge + Beam then the DPR is 123 over 4 rounds. Contrasted with my dragons DPR of 139 over 3 rounds.

Mechanically I don't think there is necessarily one way that's better, however, I am not a massive fan of rounds where monsters don't do anything. I would say my dragon would be more entertaining against a party that were lower level to it - whereas your dragon (if we codensed a few things) might be more fun if the party (of immortals) were equal to or greater than it.

 

[Upper_Krust]

One more thing, I thought you might like this from my Great Wyrm Red Dragon:

Breath Weapons (1/Rest). The dragon uses one of the following breath weapons. Additionally, targets that fail their saving throw by 10 or more (DC 17) take maximum damage from these attacks.

That means on a "critical" failure of the save the target will take 540 damage form the Fire Beam.

I like the idea of extra detrimental effects on badly failed saves and the damage is still balanced.

I don't like the idea that everything at epic needs to be dealing 50% Force Damage (and I did the exact same thing in 3.5 with everything dealing half divine damage - so I know exactly where you are coming from). I do think this new idea of mine...lets call it "Resistance is Futile" is a bit more interesting and again (as with the Bloodied mechanic) UPS THE ANTE as the fight progresses, meaning fights are no longer linear.

I'll reply to your other post a bit later amigo, need to get some dinner here.