impact of removing prestige class prereqs and...

[Plane Sailing]

What would be the impact of removing prestige class skill and feat prereqs and simply allowing any prestige class to be entered at a certain level (which might vary from class to class).

e.g. Anyone with 14 arcane caster levels can become an archmage, anyone with 5 levels can become an assassin, any dwarf with 6 levels can become a dwarven defender etc.

I've been thinking about the argument that says "balance great prestige classes by requiring sub-optimal feats" and I don't think it actually works well... it means that a PC has to pick sub-optimal things right now (possibly leading to less fun) but once they get to their chosen prestige class the concerns go away.

Making merely level (and possibly some degree of arcane or divine caster level) necessary would make it much easier for PC's to enter a class without retconning their abilities or planning out every step in nauseus advance. (e.g. at 8th level the PC finds himself with the opportunity to become a "Purple Wyvern Knight" in the kings service... but because he hasn't learnt spring attack or doesn't have 8 ranks in knowledge nobility it isn't open to him no matter how much sense it makes in terms of the story. Plus he couldn't have known that this special group existed when the character was first created and during his first six levels, so he couldn't guide his development to meet (unknown) requirements...)

What are your thoughts on this?

 

[Darklone]

For well written prestige classes, it wouldn't change anything IMHO.

Main impact would be on fighter classes, rogues might enter them faster (because of BAB requirements).

Deleting feat prerequs... might be a bad ideas for PrClasses that are supposed to be balanced (I hate them) by suboptimal feat requirements, as you say... (me idiot was thinking the same without properly reading)... but since I would never touch these classes anyhow, no problem.

 

[Li Shenron]

I agree with Darklone about hatred for PrCl which uses disposable prerequisites to allow for powerful abilities, and think that both are mistakes.

I would not be concerned at all with the balance issue. Instead I would take care of the fact that if you remove some feat as prerequisite, the PrCl (which previously assumed you HAD those feats) may grant something which is a better version of them or which used to have them as requisites.

You simply need to check the PrCl, for example if it had Weapon Focus as requisites and later the class gives you Greater Weapon Focus, now that you don't need to have WF if you get GWF it is worth double.
It could be slightly more complicated if you needed Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack and the PrCl granted you Whilrwind Attack as a bonus feat (even if you missed its other reqs)...

Beside this facts, taking the prereqs away it only detracts flavor: it's not that hard anymore to qualify - or better, you may enter the PrCl without having planned beforehand. I have always said that prerequsites should be written in a very good way, they are important to define what a PrCl is because they are the only real thing which all PCs of that PrCl have in common (together with at least the PrCl's 1st level features, obviously).

 

[brento766]

hummmmm

But what about multiclassers? For instance I want to go into the purple dragon knights, but instead of taking that many straight figher, i want to sub in 2 wizard for spells. Same base attack but your req required that I go that many in fighter/paly. Base attack to me represents your general combat prowes and the reqs mean you need to be at a certain level of skill before entering into these orginizations. Also the skill reqs mean more than just taking ranks - when you take know:nob you are hanging around nobles to find out this info. The req is reflected on how they want you to act in and out of the prc. For instance: you can't be a black pacifist and join the KKK. The knights are the same way, they have a certain attitude they are trying to maintain and they accomplish this by the reqs for the class.

 

[orangefruitbat]

You could turnt the pre-reqs into mandatory purchsae feats - you don't need them to start, but whenever you gain new feats or skills, you must purchase these things - this represents your devotion to your new class.

This way the balance factor remains (more or less), but allows PCs to get the prestige classes they want, even if they don't have the feats up front.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I don't like it. There's a lot of flavor in prestige class requirements, and well-written reqs are logical (even if suboptimal). Taking away the requirements makes the classes less prestigious, and causes odd balance issues. (Look at the archmage w/o requirments, or the loremaster!)

 

[Plane Sailing]

But doesn't the fact that you have to be a certain level (and, dare I breathe the thought, meet role-playing reqs in game) actually make it prestigious... more so than a particular skill or feat set?


I was just thinking that there are no prereqs for getting into any of the standard classes

At the moment prereqs make flavour text just look stupid in some cases - I can remember an example in the 3e DMG where it said "class x are often found as y", but class x couldn't actually qualify until they are about 16th level!

 

[Coredump]

My answer is... it depends.

It depends on how you play the game. The rules are written to try and be bulletproof. It is obvious to me that the same company that makes Magic makes 3E. The consistency and regularity is the same, the ability to rely on the rules is the same, the 'protection' the rules try and give from munchkins is the same.

But, OTOH, to me it takes something away also. I hate games like Diablo where to play well you have to plan your character starting at 1st level. What about a character that is 5th level, and discovers his desire to help defend his dwarven homeland...but he is missing feats to do so.

Now, if you play with folks that like to powergame, or like to take 1 or 2 levels of 6 different classes... then maybe the requirements make more sense. They are a hedge against breaking the game by cherry picking. But I would never dismiss out of hand any request for a PrC just because of pre-reqs. This does not mean they can take anything they want, but it opens up other possibilities, and allows for things like quests and such. Maybe the above dwarf must do a great deed to be accepted for training, or something like that.

IME, many of the rules are to support the DM when gamers try and get overly powerful, if you have a handle on what you want in your game, I don't think it will matter too much. Just BE AWARE of the potential for abuse (intentional or not) and make sure it doesn't happen.

Good Luck

 

[CRGreathouse]

But doesn't the fact that you have to be a certain level (and, dare I breathe the thought, meet role-playing reqs in game) actually make it prestigious... more so than a particular skill or feat set?

Is that a trick question? No, it isn't.

Loremasters are just that -- experts on every kind of knowledge, from the common to the esoteric. Why should a wizard of level X qualify without enough Knowledge ranks, or without Skill Focus (Knowledge (X)) to show the dedication to mastery of lore? Why should evocation specialists who haven't ever taken a divination past 0-level qualify for the class?

It's designed for a certain mindset and certain capabilities and aptitudes. Without the requirements it falls apart...

Frankly, the requirements are my favorite part of prestige classes. I think that classes with good requirements are more than halfway done -- coming up with good abilties and getting explanatory text down on paper are important, too, but much easier.

As for core classes... frankly, I'd prefer to see them statted more like prestige classes. Maybe I'll post what I mean if I get a chance to type up some examples.

 

[rkanodia]

If you want to change the thing where PCs take feats and skills just to qualify for a prestige class, especially where the PC doesn't even know of the existence of the class or has no reason to want to join it at the moment, I would sort of move the requirements around. Don't have prereqs for joining the class. Have prereqs for advancing in the class. That way, once you're in, you can spend your skills and feats on the requirements for higher levels if you don't already have them. This should reduce the metagame activity at earlier levels.