Important change of policy from RPGNow

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I think punishment is the wrong word to use here, it's a reminder that i do not like to buy from said store, and that if they want to sell products to me they should start looking at other ways to get product out to me. And everyone with half a brain will find those 'other ways' out there on the web, it would take a little effort, but the reward would be enourmous (not soley dependant on someone else for your sales).


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No.. its a punishment.
You aren't reminding the publisher.. You never contacted the publisher to state why they lost your sale. They never know that you are boycotting rpgnow..
Or actually more than likely.. you are punishing yourself. Because you lose out on purchasing the material.

Why exactly would the reward be enormous?
Rpgnow isn't only a sale stream... they are an advertising stream as well. Just having a fancy sales website doesn't necessarily help the end user either.
 

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Cergorach said:


With the current possibilities on the web there could have been other possibilities. One of the best (IMHO) would have been to suggest to publishers to create a system that would not allow users that where revered to the page by RPGNow! (used the link on the site) to buy from other vendors (it would not show these possibilities). With the current technology on the web this could be achieved without to much trouble.

Just more and more questions, why, why, why!

If the publisher site does link back to rpgnow for the purchases, then it continues with its link from rpgnow. RPGNOw left it up to the publishers to do it themselves.
 

Originally posted by Cergorach
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What i find disturbing is that why did RPGNow! not start a dialogue with the publishers to resolve the problems they have think they have. RPGNow! is nothing less than a provider, without the publishers they are nothing, how is it that they can set policy?

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Just out of curiosity mate, what evidence do you have to say that RPGNow did NOT start a dialogue with the publishers before introducing this policy?

cheers

D20Dazza
 

@tensen
If i really want a certain product i can always contact he publisher directly. If the publisher doesn't want me to sell his product except through RPGNow! then ther are other ways...
Btw, i'm still my own master when it comes to purchasing things, i don't really need anyone to tell me what i 'need' to do.

@D20Dazza
Well, let me point you to the very first post in this tread.

No offense guys, but i think that RPGNow is doing a disservice to both the publishers and the customers. The only way i know how to make my objections known is:
1.) Whine in this forum ;-)
2.) Vote with my walet.
3.) Try and provide an alternative to RPGNow! (i'm going to look into the technical aspects of something like this)...
 

Cergorach said:
@tensen
If i really want a certain product i can always contact he publisher directly. If the publisher doesn't want me to sell his product except through RPGNow! then there are other ways...

I really didn't want to get into this conversation... but this just irks me. So you're saying someone has to sell to you directly or you'll just pirate it? WTF? You've shown your true colors here.

One other quick comment. RPGNow.com has ALWAYS had that policy, there was no need for conversation with the vendors, it has never been in question. We just recently reminded some people when we did a review of our clients.

We don't force anyone to use our system and are happy to see people making money off their products any way they can... we just aren't in the business of promoting a product to our 5000 customers and 500 visitors a day, so that someone can just buy it without us being in the chain. We don't charge our clients for adverting. We don't charge them to setup accounts on our site. We simply take a fair share out of each sale. Who else is going to pay for our ads in Dragon Magazine, Legend Magazine, Gaming Frontiers, Dungeon Magazine, Knights of the Dinner Table Comics, GamePlay CD, WOTC Website, EN World Website, RPG Host Network, Overture Network (Yahoo, MSN, Altavista, AOL), GenCon Registration Books, and other sponsorship?

James
http://www.RPGNow.com
 

rpghost said:
I really didn't want to get into this conversation... but this just irks me. So you're saying someone has to sell to you directly or you'll just pirate it? WTF? You've shown your true colors here.

I didn't say that. Your putting words in my mouth, there is a legal term for it somewhere ;-p No one has ever seen my true colors, but my opinions on this subject are well known, just use the search option...

You say that RPGNow has always had this policy, i believe you. That explains why i couldn't find any links to certain publishers, i just thought that it was an 'accident' on RPGNow's part, or that the publisher 'forgot' to link to their own site. The problem is that i can't seem to find any link to the policies RPGNow uses on their site (does it too use an alternate means of electronic payment ;-) There's also not very much info on what the publisher is getting into before he signs up, although you can e-mail the sales manager...

I think the problem RPGNow has is that it's not communicaing enough, that kinda gives an impression that it doesn't care, abou it's publishers or it's customers.

rpghost said:
We don't force anyone to use our system and are happy to see people making money off their products any way they can... we just aren't in the business of promoting a product to our 5000 customers and 500 visitors a day, so that someone can just buy it without us being in the chain.

Erm... They still can. It just takes a little bit more effort on the part of the customer. Most RPGers i know are of above average intelligence (important because the think before they buy), they often want to know more about a product before they buy it (not taking the sales pitch for granted) and typing in the companies name in a search engine is a simple task. It's simple but extremely annoying for the customer. Since when do RPG related companies depend on 'crushing' the competition instead of letting it's great service speak of itself, what do you think your customers want?

Btw why does it take 'creative' wording to get a response from your company? A publisher is yelling bloody murder, a couple of others are shaken, and a couple of customers aren't to positive either.
 

Cergorach said:

Btw why does it take 'creative' wording to get a response from your company? A publisher is yelling bloody murder, a couple of others are shaken, and a couple of customers aren't to positive either.

Because this kind of open forum bitch sessions always hurt everyone involved and start flame wars. That's why I stay out of them. This person/publisher was explained through several mails about the situation and he was just not getting it. We usually deal with such things privately and he felt the need to take it to an open forum - we do not feel that's appropriate.

As for communications, we're always in contact with our vendors and we send them mail on a regular basis about whats going on (such as the opertunity to get in on bundle CD deals for GenCon 2002)... but as far as public communications, you're probably right. We haven't spent a lot of time (other then promotional material) communicating with the general public. We of course answer all support mail within an hour on average, but we don't usually toll the message boards for input.

James
P.S. Sorry about the pirate comment if that's not what you meant it sure seemed like it.
 

Cergorach said:


Erm... They still can. It just takes a little bit more effort on the part of the customer. Most RPGers i know are of above average intelligence (important because the think before they buy), they often want to know more about a product before they buy it (not taking the sales pitch for granted) and typing in the companies name in a search engine is a simple task. It's simple but extremely annoying for the customer. Since when do RPG related companies depend on 'crushing' the competition instead of letting it's great service speak of itself, what do you think your customers want?

Hmm... the last time I checked, most of the online D&D community is quite aware of EN World and knows that there is a listing here of every known d20 publisher (including their website address). So, if they wish to find out more about a product, then there is always this resource, or a little search engine known as Google -- why be so lazy and expect RPG Now! to do the work for you?

Could you honestly expect walking into Wal-Mart and finding them including directions for the local K-Mart for many of the same products?! RPG Now! is first and foremost a company, which can and will do whatever it wants for the greater good of said company. THEY DON'T OWE ANYONE HERE ANYTHING, aside from quick, reliable transactions.

This entire thread is silly and was started out of nonsense, IMHO.

Btw why does it take 'creative' wording to get a response from your company? A publisher is yelling bloody murder, a couple of others are shaken, and a couple of customers aren't to positive either.

Heh, as has already been pointed out in this thread by RPGhost, it was extremely bad form (and business sense) for said publishers to bring their problems here. These publishers have the emails of other d20 publishers, d20 industry "professionals", and the fine people of RPG Now!.

I'm not suggesting it, but I wouldn't be surprised if a boycott started against said publisher for their actions here.

This thread shouldn't have ever seen the light of a cyber-day (and shouldn't still).
 

rpghost said:

This person/publisher was explained through several mails about the situation and he was just not getting it.

I'm sorry, but this is simply not the truth. We were given no notification about this policy when we signed up, nor were we given any forewarning that a change of this nature was about to occur. If this policy was in place before this email was released to us, we were never made aware of it. Also, if it were, why then was a link provided to us from RPGNow when we signed up, despite the presence at that time of e-com capabilities on our website?

Beyond that, I am going to cease further comment on this issue, though I have absolutely no regrets about bringing it out into the open.
 
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2 cents...

Cergorach said:
Erm... They still can. It just takes a little bit more effort on the part of the customer. Most RPGers i know are of above average intelligence (important because the think before they buy), they often want to know more about a product before they buy it (not taking the sales pitch for granted) and typing in the companies name in a search engine is a simple task. It's simple but extremely annoying for the customer. Since when do RPG related companies depend on 'crushing' the competition instead of letting it's great service speak of itself, what do you think your customers want?[/i]

Let me see if I understand your chain of reasoning correctly... this is what you want and you want RPGNow.com to accept this?

1.) You see a product that interests thanks to RPGNow.com - be it in print, advertising, banner ad, or simply because you check their front page regularly for new items.

In other words, you learn about the product thanks to the dollars/resources of RPGNow.com, and NOT the dollars/resources of the publisher.

2.) They provide a link to the publisher.

3.) You go to the company's website to find out more about it.

4.) You decide you want to buy it.

5.) There is a link to the publisher's shopping cart.

Now, if there is a link to buy the product right there on the site (and not from RPGNow.com), are you honestly going to tell me that you're going to take the time to go BACK to RPGNow.com and buy it from them? Of course not. Why not? "Because it's simple but extremely annoying for the customer." (Does that phrase sound a little familiar? It should.)

In other words, you have just denied RPGNow.com their share of the sale... they DID contribute to the sale back in step 1, remember? That's how you found the product in the first place! How does RPGNow attempt to avoid being so denied? By removing Step 2 from the process - of course the customer can find the site using his own devices, but as you mention, it *is* annoying.

But you've put RPGNow in a catch-22... for it to get its cut of the sales (based on its work promoting the products), you the customer, have to be annoyed...
(A) It either has to trust that you, good and loyal customer that you are, will be willing to voluntarily undergo annoyance by ignoring the "quick and easy" buy on the publisher's site and instead return to RPGNow.com to make the buy (let's face it, the majority of customers are NOT going to do this) - in other words, you have to put forth extra effort in order to buy from RPGNow.com.

or (B), it cuts the link to the publisher, which annoys you when you can't find an easy way to get more info on the product. On the other hand, you have to put forth extra effort NOT to buy from RPGNow.com.

By your own argument, it seems that you and RPGNow.com came to the same conclusion... most often, the customer is going to choose the path of least effort, meaning that option B is the best option for them... the path of least effort leads to a sale for them with option B and doesn't lead to a sale for them in option A. Either way, though, you the customer are upset... and there's really nothing RPGNow.com can do about that if they want to stay in business... in order to advertise, they MUST generate revenue and that means they need you to buy products from them rather than cutting them out of the equation.

I have no problem with Darrin's decision to leave, and respect him a great deal - I've complimented him on that in this an other forums. However, I believe he may be incorrect in stating the policy had changed over time. I inquired into using RPGNow.com in early February 2002. The Terms of Service document I was provided at that time DID mention that if my site linked to other methods of buying the product, RPGNow would not link to my site.

It was a little ways down in the legalese, IIRC, and perhaps not stated quite as strongly as in the statement quoted here by Darrin, but it WAS there. If Darrin was on RPGnow prior to February (I strongly suspect he was), the policy may have been different at the time he began a relationship with them; however, I will vouch for RPGNow that the letter Darrin received was not a change in policy as of late April/early May... that policy had been in effect (at least to my understanding) since at least February and possibly earlier (I can't speak to earlier since I wasn't around then).

Btw why does it take 'creative' wording to get a response from your company? A publisher is yelling bloody murder, a couple of others are shaken, and a couple of customers aren't to positive either.

OTOH, might this be a bit of an overreaction? The biggest publishers that use RPGNow.com - Malhavoc Press, Ambient, Inc., Natural 20 Press, and Thunder Head Games - have expressed not only no opposition to RPGNow.com, but in fact have stated support for them. Yes, a publisher is yelling bloody murder... but four or five other publishers - including both big and small players - are saying, "this is blown a bit out of proportion." And if a couple of customers aren't too positive either... well, you can't please everyone all the time. :(

As far as "creative wording" goes, I think the proper words would be "inflammatory wording" - if you flame someone and then try to claim that the silence is the opposite side's admission of defeat, don't be surprised when you get a response. It's a simple baiting tactic on your part, nothing more. It speaks nothing of RPGNow and everything of the tactics used. :(

Anyway, that's my 2 cents. I can see RPGNow.com's argument and to be honest, at this point, I agree with them (even if I *am* just a small publisher and "don't understand all the issues" - I understand that my sales are immensely better because of them and I believe their service is reasonably priced and offered with reasonable terms).

And as far as "learn to run your own e-commerce site," well, it's not always that easy... "all it takes is time." Yes, and a little money to support the ability to take credit cards. And a little more time if there's a technical SNAFU. And a little more time to keep the site up-to-date. And a little more time to monitor for problems. I consider myself reasonably web-savvy, but let me tell you... for the small amount of business I do, the work/time involved administering a shopping cart literally isn't worth it! I don't make enough money on my product to justify that kind of time expenditure. Few do... why do you think most of us have day jobs (in my case, I guess I am fortunate to have one that gives me enough free time to type these kinds of posts).

In other words, before you complain, put yourself in the shoes of RPGNow.com and draft me a policy that (A) allows RPGNow.com to draw revenue in order to maintain operations and (B) doesn't annoy the customer. You will find that based on the premises you started with, the two goals are mutually exclusive.

Instead of complaining and moaning about how evil RPGNow.com is, why don't you instead provide them with a viable alternate solution. I'm pretty sure that if you did so, they would give it a long, hard look. It's easy to say, "this sucks" - it's harder to say, "here's how to improve it."

--The Sigil
 
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