Impossible To Run A GameForked Thread: I Owe Wizards an Apology
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Lancelot
Adventurer
My expectations are that the GM knows the setting, actively works to suspend my disbelief, and drops in a few nuggets of "setting content" from time-to-time to help us identify with it.
I have never left a game because I didn't feel the DM was being true to the line... but I've never really had this happen to me. I've played in the Realms and Eberron over the last 5 years, and both DMs seemed to know their stuff.
I believe my character knows the basics about the setting (i.e. the majority of what's included in the relevant WotC "Players Guide to..."), unless the DM specifies there are certain things I don't know. Having said that, I also assume that some of what my PC knows is not how it really is (e.g. the King of Cormyr might actually be a rakshasa in disguise).
I have never forced out another player, as a player.
I rarely feel constrained by a fiction line as a DM, because I mostly DM my own homebrew. On those rare occasions when I DM a published setting (e.g. Dragonlance, Star Wars), I only pay close attention to the core fiction for the setting (original trilogy, for both examples given), and even then I don't let it impact what I feel is a good game.
I have never stopped a game because a player was ruining it for me, although I've come close on at least two occasions (players got visibly angry with each other for "letting my PC die"). However, I've never seen it come to blows or to a point where it impacted friendships. It's just a game, in the end.
I've asked a player to leave a game, once, over 20 years ago. I was the regular DM, we were all in our mid-teens, and one player was acting in a crass manner on a fairly regular basis. It was behaviour that we'd all tolerate today, but it wasn't appropriate for the time, age-group or location (we used to play at our parents' houses). It cost us a friend, and I still wonder if I did the right thing or not.
I have never left a game because I didn't feel the DM was being true to the line... but I've never really had this happen to me. I've played in the Realms and Eberron over the last 5 years, and both DMs seemed to know their stuff.
I believe my character knows the basics about the setting (i.e. the majority of what's included in the relevant WotC "Players Guide to..."), unless the DM specifies there are certain things I don't know. Having said that, I also assume that some of what my PC knows is not how it really is (e.g. the King of Cormyr might actually be a rakshasa in disguise).
I have never forced out another player, as a player.
I rarely feel constrained by a fiction line as a DM, because I mostly DM my own homebrew. On those rare occasions when I DM a published setting (e.g. Dragonlance, Star Wars), I only pay close attention to the core fiction for the setting (original trilogy, for both examples given), and even then I don't let it impact what I feel is a good game.
I have never stopped a game because a player was ruining it for me, although I've come close on at least two occasions (players got visibly angry with each other for "letting my PC die"). However, I've never seen it come to blows or to a point where it impacted friendships. It's just a game, in the end.
I've asked a player to leave a game, once, over 20 years ago. I was the regular DM, we were all in our mid-teens, and one player was acting in a crass manner on a fairly regular basis. It was behaviour that we'd all tolerate today, but it wasn't appropriate for the time, age-group or location (we used to play at our parents' houses). It cost us a friend, and I still wonder if I did the right thing or not.
wayne62682
First Post
As a player, I feel my character knows most basic knowledge about the world we're playing in. For example, if I'm playing in Eberron I expect my PC to know about the Last War, all of the Five Nations (and nearly everything that's not a secret about the nation he hails from), and all of that. I wouldn't expect him to know world secrets like Kaius is a vampire, or more beyond common information for secret societies (e.g. I've heard the name of the Lords of Dust, and that they have ties to demons from ages past, but that's all).
I cannot play in or run a campaign where canon history is changed willy-nilly, especially due to the DM not bothering to read the history of the world. That doesn't mean I expect the DM to follow all of the umpteen Forgotten Realms novels, but basic things in the world need to remain the same or we're not playing Forgotten Realms, we're playing a lazy homebrew where the DM is using Forgotten Realms names. I have played under DMs that felt "It doesn't matter what the book says, I'm the DM" and honestly I have wanted to punch these people.
When I DM I try to stick as much to the base canon as possible; I would not, for instance, make a note to read all the FR novels but I would know what has gone on in them to explain the world. In the quote cited by the OP, as a DM I would never be foolish enough to have a minotaur from a clan that I know is afraid of water become a pirate; however if that information was in some obscure novel I would retcon it on that basis (and assume the player would understand). As a player I would not cite random minutiae unless it is in a major book (e.g. if there was a sourcebook called "Minotaur Clans of Frabindor" and we were playing in the "Frabindor" campaign setting, I would expect the DM to know about this if he was having minotaurs).
I cannot play in or run a campaign where canon history is changed willy-nilly, especially due to the DM not bothering to read the history of the world. That doesn't mean I expect the DM to follow all of the umpteen Forgotten Realms novels, but basic things in the world need to remain the same or we're not playing Forgotten Realms, we're playing a lazy homebrew where the DM is using Forgotten Realms names. I have played under DMs that felt "It doesn't matter what the book says, I'm the DM" and honestly I have wanted to punch these people.
When I DM I try to stick as much to the base canon as possible; I would not, for instance, make a note to read all the FR novels but I would know what has gone on in them to explain the world. In the quote cited by the OP, as a DM I would never be foolish enough to have a minotaur from a clan that I know is afraid of water become a pirate; however if that information was in some obscure novel I would retcon it on that basis (and assume the player would understand). As a player I would not cite random minutiae unless it is in a major book (e.g. if there was a sourcebook called "Minotaur Clans of Frabindor" and we were playing in the "Frabindor" campaign setting, I would expect the DM to know about this if he was having minotaurs).
Nope. If I leave a game, its because the GM was being arbitrary or just couldn't run his game in some way.
That depends upon the individual PC. Most will have only the most provincial of knowledge. However, I once played Morley Dotes in a campaign based on "The Garrett Files" books by Glen Cook. That PC's nature demanded that he had to have a lot of knowledge about the setting...fortunately, I was a fan of the books so I could swing it for the most part.
(However, IMHO, Morley would have worked better as a DMPC, since he is a major conduit for information in the books.)
Not that I'm aware of.
Not at all if its fiction based on an RPG. I never read that stuff- if it isn't in the campaign setting or its related splatbooks, its not canon to my game in that setting. You can complain about it, and maybe I'll bend a bit if I like what I hear, but as far as I'm concerned, that stuff happened in an "alternate dimension" version of the setting (or, if that hurts your feelings, my campaign is the alternate dimension).
Its a bit different if the RPG is based on a piece of fiction. As long as the stuff doesn't change basic premises of the underlying fiction- say, by having Gandalf being Sauron's older, more evil, transgendered sister in a MERP game- I'm cool with it.
And again, even then, I'm cool with "alternative dimension" justifications if they are well done but I'd probably have a problem with Evilgirl Gandalf, even in an alt. universe.
Nope, but I know some GMs who have.
Sort of, but it wasn't about being true to the campaign or its underlying fiction.
A player joined my HERO 1900 campaign (based in part on Space:1889, the fiction of H.G. Wells, Jules Verne, and William Gibson, and a whole bunch of other stuff) a few adventures in. He designed a PC for a campaign that, while a bit more lethal than the other PCs, was 100% thematically true to the spirit campaign.
His PC was a combat monster (as you might expect), but at one point in a combat, his PC got pinned.
I didn't make that perfectly clear, and he thought I was singling him out. Due to this misunderstanding, he left. Had he not done so, I still might have had to kick him out.
While his PC was appropriate, his overall gameplay was a bit aggressive and put off some of the other players. If I couldn't have made him alter his style a bit, or made the other players adjust to his playstyle, he would have had to go.
As a player who enjoys the fiction of a line,... what are your expectations from the GM?
A strong familiarity with the setting. I don't expect a GM's knowledge to be encyclopedic. In the case of D&D settings where the setting came before the fiction, I don't expect the GM to take the fiction as canon, unless the GM is focusing specifically on the period and location of one work of fiction.
As a player, have you ever left a game because the GM wasn't being 'true' to the line?
No.
As a player, how much do you think your character knows about the setting?
What a person in his or her position would know. If I'm playing a first level fighter, I'd expect... say, a junior high school understanding of the history and such. I expect the GM to tell me what I should know - that's what various knowledge-type skills are for.
As a player, have you ever 'forced' out another player?
No.
As a GM, how... constrained do you feel by the fiction line?
As a GM, I avoid working in areas specified by fiction.
As a GM, have you ever stopped running a game because a player ruined it for you?
No.
As a GM have you had to ask a player to leave because they were ruining the enjoyment of other players?
Yes. But it had nothing to do with "setting canon lawyering".
A strong familiarity with the setting. I don't expect a GM's knowledge to be encyclopedic. In the case of D&D settings where the setting came before the fiction, I don't expect the GM to take the fiction as canon, unless the GM is focusing specifically on the period and location of one work of fiction.
As a player, have you ever left a game because the GM wasn't being 'true' to the line?
No.
As a player, how much do you think your character knows about the setting?
What a person in his or her position would know. If I'm playing a first level fighter, I'd expect... say, a junior high school understanding of the history and such. I expect the GM to tell me what I should know - that's what various knowledge-type skills are for.
As a player, have you ever 'forced' out another player?
No.
As a GM, how... constrained do you feel by the fiction line?
As a GM, I avoid working in areas specified by fiction.
As a GM, have you ever stopped running a game because a player ruined it for you?
No.
As a GM have you had to ask a player to leave because they were ruining the enjoyment of other players?
Yes. But it had nothing to do with "setting canon lawyering".
When I (am forced to) run a game in a published setting, I feel a lot of pressure to get the details right to the point that sometimes my games never happen or come to a screeching halt for trivial reasons.
For 3e Forgotten Realms, my cataloging of the setting killed all interest of running a game.
An Oriental Adventures/Legend of the Five Rings stopped for what seemed like forever while I thought about whether or not a character would knock on a door.
I set my Star Wars SE game in the Legacy era (which is 100 years after the movies, for the uninitiated), and I still felt incredible pressure to detail everything in known space.
I'm terrified of Eberron.
An odd outlier was Call of Cthulhu d20. One of the most fun games I ever ran I had no interest in running, so I instituted a Last Man Standing rule: if at least one character was alive and mostly sane at the end of the session, I'd continue the game the following week. I suppose not caring about continuity and throwing dark cults and plant-controlled zombie hordes at my players help alleviate whatever anxiety I was experiencing.
For 3e Forgotten Realms, my cataloging of the setting killed all interest of running a game.
An Oriental Adventures/Legend of the Five Rings stopped for what seemed like forever while I thought about whether or not a character would knock on a door.
I set my Star Wars SE game in the Legacy era (which is 100 years after the movies, for the uninitiated), and I still felt incredible pressure to detail everything in known space.
I'm terrified of Eberron.
An odd outlier was Call of Cthulhu d20. One of the most fun games I ever ran I had no interest in running, so I instituted a Last Man Standing rule: if at least one character was alive and mostly sane at the end of the session, I'd continue the game the following week. I suppose not caring about continuity and throwing dark cults and plant-controlled zombie hordes at my players help alleviate whatever anxiety I was experiencing.
Ed_Laprade
Adventurer
As I only ever run my own campaign worlds, and pretty much never read rpg based books, I can't answer most of these questions.
One I will mention is the about how much I expect my character to know about the game world. Most of what I know, unless his background makes it clear he doesn't. (For example, I expect your average, garden varity fantasy world peasant to know about the most notorious monsters. As someone said somewhere, D&D has it backwards a lot of the time. Hardly anyone's ever heard about legendary monsters because they have too many hit dice. How screwed up is that?)
One I will mention is the about how much I expect my character to know about the game world. Most of what I know, unless his background makes it clear he doesn't. (For example, I expect your average, garden varity fantasy world peasant to know about the most notorious monsters. As someone said somewhere, D&D has it backwards a lot of the time. Hardly anyone's ever heard about legendary monsters because they have too many hit dice. How screwed up is that?)
WayneLigon
Adventurer
As a player, have you ever left a game because the GM wasn't being 'true' to the line?
No, but so far no-one has really stamped all over the things I'd get all nerd-rage-y about. I have played in a number of games where my enjoyment was pretty close to nil, though, and the only reason I stayed was that I knew we'd eventually change to something else.
The main thing that would cause me to leave a game would be if it was not done 'as advertised'. If someone says they're running a DC Universe game and then Superman or Batman regularly kill villains, then I'm not playing in that game. I would say that would be a case of not being true to the genre, rather than not being true to the 'line' per se. If we were, say, playing in the Authority universe, I would not have a problem with it.
As a player, how much do you think your character knows about the setting?
A fair amount. I'm usually pretty good at figuring out what a normal person would know about a setting and if I have a question, I'd ask the GM. If I live in the Forgotten Realms, for instance, I have heard of Elminster and some of the other great heroes. I know vaguely where Amn is and what the value of gold is in my general region. I know what an orc is, and what they're like.
As a player, have you ever 'forced' out another player?
Not directly, but I have wanted to. Many, many times. Back when there was a much larger pool of players, I'd be much more choosy about the group I played with and so would not join groups that had certain people. And I have suggested to a GM that he not invite so-and-so to his next campaign or group.
As a GM, how... constrained do you feel by the fiction line?
Almost none. If I'm running a game where the main enjoyment comes from a line, I'll stay true to certain things and change other things. For example, if I was running a Marvel Universe game, Civil War would never have happened.
As a GM, have you ever stopped running a game because a player ruined it for you?
Yes. I've almost stopped gaming a few times because specific people were ruining the fun for me.
As a GM have you had to ask a player to leave because they were ruining the enjoyment of other players?
So far, only three times; #1 a guy that was repeatedly cheating and didn't stop after he was called on it. #2 was a guy that simply could not grasp the idea of a four-color comic universe, even after reading material and discussions were held with him. #3 was a guy that simply refused to roleplay at all. He treated the game like a complex boardgame and it was very grating.
I have wanted to many, many other times. Usually, though, I did not because 'the group' technically belonged to someone else, or it was not held at my house, etc.
No, but so far no-one has really stamped all over the things I'd get all nerd-rage-y about. I have played in a number of games where my enjoyment was pretty close to nil, though, and the only reason I stayed was that I knew we'd eventually change to something else.
The main thing that would cause me to leave a game would be if it was not done 'as advertised'. If someone says they're running a DC Universe game and then Superman or Batman regularly kill villains, then I'm not playing in that game. I would say that would be a case of not being true to the genre, rather than not being true to the 'line' per se. If we were, say, playing in the Authority universe, I would not have a problem with it.
As a player, how much do you think your character knows about the setting?
A fair amount. I'm usually pretty good at figuring out what a normal person would know about a setting and if I have a question, I'd ask the GM. If I live in the Forgotten Realms, for instance, I have heard of Elminster and some of the other great heroes. I know vaguely where Amn is and what the value of gold is in my general region. I know what an orc is, and what they're like.
As a player, have you ever 'forced' out another player?
Not directly, but I have wanted to. Many, many times. Back when there was a much larger pool of players, I'd be much more choosy about the group I played with and so would not join groups that had certain people. And I have suggested to a GM that he not invite so-and-so to his next campaign or group.
As a GM, how... constrained do you feel by the fiction line?
Almost none. If I'm running a game where the main enjoyment comes from a line, I'll stay true to certain things and change other things. For example, if I was running a Marvel Universe game, Civil War would never have happened.
As a GM, have you ever stopped running a game because a player ruined it for you?
Yes. I've almost stopped gaming a few times because specific people were ruining the fun for me.
As a GM have you had to ask a player to leave because they were ruining the enjoyment of other players?
So far, only three times; #1 a guy that was repeatedly cheating and didn't stop after he was called on it. #2 was a guy that simply could not grasp the idea of a four-color comic universe, even after reading material and discussions were held with him. #3 was a guy that simply refused to roleplay at all. He treated the game like a complex boardgame and it was very grating.
I have wanted to many, many other times. Usually, though, I did not because 'the group' technically belonged to someone else, or it was not held at my house, etc.
Maybe no more than high charisma being more "intimidating" than (say) high strength, low wisdom and a huge axe wielded with dubious dexterity.
A lot of things might seem pretty wacky in the D&D versions with "skill systems".The development of actual knowledge is to me one way experience in the role is reflected, and one of my pleasures as a role-player. I would very much rather explore a real mystery than merely feign ignorance. So, I tend to find it pretty cool when one means to that experience is the revelation that what I "knew" from a book ain't necessarily so.
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Lord Mhoram
Hero
No.
The difficulties that can arise from problems in these areas are the reason I only GM (and prefer to play) in homebrew.
