Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun

[Talic]

Yeah, the bull rush results need to be clarified a bit. Like when you push someone into a wall, or into an occupied space.

Right now, the only precedents I'm aware of are the results of a failed bull rush where your own square is occupied(fall prone), and the tactical manuver "domino rush"(push foe into another foe, trip attempt against both).

It seems reasonable to treat being pushed into a wall as falling damage, and pushing a foe into an occupied space as being prone. But I've not seen any official ruling about either.

 

[Joshua Randall]

No one can see a use for moving your foes about the combat grid against their will? If you can't see a way to use Impr. Bull Rush to set up nasty situations, or conversely, prevent nastiness from happening to your allies, then you're just not trying.

For the same reason, I think the spells transposition and baleful transposition (or whatever they are called) may be the most exciting low level spells outside of the PHB.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

I've seen improved overrun taken by a PC. Good for knocking down that first row lackey to get to the BBEG.

 

[Infiniti2000]

One of the best uses is shoving someone through a Wall of Fire or Blade Barrier - oh wait, that kind of screws the bull rusher, too, as they have to move with the victim.

No, they don't. They move into the defender's space, but then the defender gets pushed back 5ft into the wall of fire (or whatever).

Improved Overrun is lame. There's no way for the initiator of the maneuver to avoid the AoO.

I dislike the fact that an AoO is not negated. I think the attacker should have the option to either negate the AoO or not allow the defender to avoid.

The victim gets to choose whether they make an AoO or just get out of the way. So the initiator either runs the risk of getting skewered (and may knock over the victim), or they didn't impact their opponent at all.

The victim cannot choose to avoid the overrun when the attacker has improved overrun. However, this might not be a good thing if you're trying to get to the BBEG and attack. Sometimes it's better to give the flunky the option. Who knows, he might just think "I'm not getting in his way."