improved crit and keen

[Scion]

I know that they dont stack in 3.5, but what do people think about the following?

Have one of the two: Inc threat range as normal
Have both: Inc threat range once, up crit multiplier by 1

Now I havent run through the math, is anyone able to do so fairly quickly? I am at work right now I just check in during my breaks. What does everyone think? Thanks for your help!

 

[comrade raoul]

I know that they dont stack in 3.5, but what do people think about the following?

Have one of the two: Inc threat range as normal
Have both: Inc threat range once, up crit multiplier by 1

Now I havent run through the math, is anyone able to do so fairly quickly? I am at work right now I just check in during my breaks. What does everyone think? Thanks for your help!

This moderately favors high-threat range weapons. Consider:
- Optimized longsword; 17-20/x3. 20% chance to do +200% damage, for an expected +40% critical damage.
- Optimized scimitar: 15-20/x3. 30% chance to do +200% damage, for an expected +60% critical damage.
- Optimized battleaxe: 19-20/x4. 10% chance to do +300% damage, for an epxected +30% critical damage.
- Optimized pick: 19-20/x5. 10% chance to do +400% damage, for an expected +40% critical damage.

By far the cleanest solution is to house-rule 3.5 and just have them stack again. 12-20/x2 isn't that bad.

 

[Halivar]

This moderately favors high-threat range weapons. Consider:
- Optimized longsword; 17-20/x3. 20% chance to do +200% damage, for an expected +40% critical damage.
- Optimized scimitar: 15-20/x3. 30% chance to do +200% damage, for an expected +60% critical damage.
- Optimized battleaxe: 19-20/x4. 10% chance to do +300% damage, for an epxected +30% critical damage.
- Optimized pick: 19-20/x5. 10% chance to do +400% damage, for an expected +40% critical damage.

By far the cleanest solution is to house-rule 3.5 and just have them stack again. 12-20/x2 isn't that bad.

Especially considering you only get that on a 1d6 weapon with a one-handed Str bonus.

Now, what I really miss is my 15-20x2 with the GS.

 

[Storminator]

<SNIP>

By far the cleanest solution is to house-rule 3.5 and just have them stack again. 12-20/x2 isn't that bad.

I don't like having them stack. It makes the 20/x3 weapons inferior. 19/x2 and a 20/x3 weapon should remain on par, and with the stacked rules they aren'y even close.

After all, how often have you seen Imp Crit and Keen on a great axe?

PS

 

[Staffan]

I don't like having them stack. It makes the 20/x3 weapons inferior. 19/x2 and a 20/x3 weapon should remain on par, and with the stacked rules they aren'y even close.

After all, how often have you seen Imp Crit and Keen on a great axe?

PS

Keen+Improved Crit provides exactly the same benefit to a 20/x3 weapon as to a 19-20/x2 one. With two crit enhancements, they become 18-20/x3 and 15-20/x2. The first has a 15% chance of 200% extra damage, or +30% average damage. The second has a 30% chance of 100% extra damage, or +30% on average.

Actually, it's slightly better to put the enhancements on the axe-like weapon, because when you're getting your threat range down to 15 or even 12 (with rapiers, scimitars or falchions) you start getting into the territory where you're "wasting" threat range - even if a roll is a threat, a miss is still a miss.

 

[Staffan]

Ack, double-post due to sudden board slowdown.

 

[Storminator]

Keen+Improved Crit provides exactly the same benefit to a 20/x3 weapon as to a 19-20/x2 one. With two crit enhancements, they become 18-20/x3 and 15-20/x2. The first has a 15% chance of 200% extra damage, or +30% average damage. The second has a 30% chance of 100% extra damage, or +30% on average.

Actually, it's slightly better to put the enhancements on the axe-like weapon, because when you're getting your threat range down to 15 or even 12 (with rapiers, scimitars or falchions) you start getting into the territory where you're "wasting" threat range - even if a roll is a threat, a miss is still a miss.

OK, have you seen it often?

PS

 

[Scion]

Seeing isnt the problem or a consideration. The actual numbers work out fine for letting them stack. It is actually 'inferior' to just putting on a straight +1 generally speaking. Which is why I dont understand why it was nerfed at all.

I also have no problem with them stacking, but some people do. I was trying to think of an alternative for what is currently there, while at the same time actually making it an interesting choice to get both instead of just figuring out which one of the two to take.

Personally I see what they are doing kindof like not letting a +modifier weapon stack with bab, just nonsensical ;/ but the designers shall have their own personal pet peeves, too bad no one was able to talk sense into them this time.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Especially considering you only get that on a 1d6 weapon with a one-handed Str bonus.
.

Falchion? A 3.5e power attack with a falchion with full stacking of imp crit and keen might get a little sticky. The issue is the ease with which additional bonuses can get added together on the crit.

Personally I think the best thing is to let them continue to stack and have done with it. I don't think it is a terribly big issue.

Cheers

 

[Nifft]

Here's my solution: you only multiply weapon dice on a crit, and Keen & Imp. Crit stack as in 3.0e. The exception is Weapon Specialization, which is multiplied on a crit.

Thus, a crit from a battle axe is going to be far more scary than a crit from a dagger -- N+3d12 is just better than N+2d4, since you don't multiply N under my house rules.

Also IMC I changed the elemental Burst enchantment to deal (Crit x d12) dice of damage, replacing the normal d6 of elemental damage with a d12. So, a Flaming Burst Glaive deals:
Normal: N + 1d10 + 1d6 Fire
Critical: N + 3d10 + 3d12 Fire

So, if you want exciting crits, you can buy them.

-- N