Improved Familiars

[Nail]

Much better. Now, at least, we're on to something reasonable.

I disagree with the bonuses to Leadership you assign that Wiz 9.

..... But you probably have a Great Prestige reputation and a reputation for Special Power.

...(because having a house adds 2 to your score for that purpose)...

Of course any of these bonuses are up to the DM. Still:

• A Wiz 9 hardly qualifies you as having "great prestige". Remember, this game has at least 20 levels of PCs.
  
• Being any PC class grants you special powers, but I'd hardly call that a "reputation for special power".
  
• As both of these potential bonuses to the Leadership feat come from the same thing (being a Wiz 9), it's not a good idea to give them both.
  
• Most PCs I know do not have a "house". They're not even a regular at a local inn, fer gawds sakes.
  
• Your LE Wiz 9 probably qualifies for the "Cruelty" modifier, of -2.
  
• Your Wiz 9 is likely an adventurer, and thus "travels around alot", for a penalty of -1.

So by my count, your LE Wiz 9 with a 8 Chr has a Leadership score of 5, which qualifies him to get .....wait for it......

A 3rd ECL cohort and no followers! Woot!


That Improved Familiar is lookin' better now, ain't it?



Here's the point:

If you tilt the field in favor of Leadership (as a DM), then of course it looks better. But that's so totally dependent on the DM and the campaign style....that saying "always take Leadership over Improved Familiar" is just not true.

 

[FrankTrollman]

That Improved Familiar is lookin' better now, ain't it?

No. It's not.

You slapped down all the negatives you could. Even with all of the minuses and none of the plusses you could have:

* An Imp Familiar

OR:

* A Raven Familiar
and
* A levelled Imp Cohort


At the very least you are looking at having an Imp either way. You are talking about a character with a Charisma penalty and a negative reputation, and they still come out ahead with Leadership over Improved Familiar.

It's a feat that you get at 9th level that - at most - gives you the combat services of a CR 2 creature. CR 2! As in, if you gain even one level you will no longer gain XP for defeating that kind of monster because it is so far below you. Many of the things on that list are CR 1 - you actually don't get XP for defeating them because they are so weak.

We aren't talking about a feat that upgrades your familiar into a combat threat - we are talking about a feat that upgrades your familiar into a more powerful form that still doesn't matter.

Leadership is a powerful feat. Some say too powerful. It has the potential to add a character 2 CR less than yourself to your team. Improved Familiar is a senselessly weak feat - at its best it adds two to the CR of one of your compatriots who is already 9 CR less than yourself at the cost of 3 permanent hit points.

Leadership: Good. Maybe too good.
Improved Familiar: Too suck too live.

-Frank

 

[Kai Lord]

So what do you get for Leadership? Your Leadership score is only 9 for the purposes of attracting a cohort (because getting a familiar is dropping your score by 2 for that purpose), but it's 13 for the purpose of attracting followers (because having a house adds 2 to your score for that purpose). So you get one CR 6 cohort, and a CR 2 follower, and ten CR 1 followers. And you get a Raven Familiar.

So your choice is:

1 Imp, Familiar.

OR:

1 Raven, Familiar
1 Erinyes, Cohort
1 Imp, Follower
10 artisans and apprentices, Followers.

Not gonna happen. An Erinyes is considered a 16th level cohort. Otherwise, yes, Leadership is much better than Improved Familiar.

 

[Nail]

No. It's not.

You slapped down all the negatives you could. Even with all of the minuses and none of the plusses you could have:

* An Imp Familiar

OR:

* A Raven Familiar
and
* A levelled Imp Cohort

A-ha! Now we're getting somewhere. You are saying an Imp with class levels is ECL 3? Yer wrong, bud.

Remember, with Leadership you attract a cohort with a certain ECL, not CR. Those two numbers are different.

No wonder you think leadership is so good!



Moreover:
The text of the feat says:

A character can try to attract a cohort of a particular race, class, and alignment.

Your DM may not give you the exact cohort you desire. Tough beans.

 

[Silverglass]

No. It's not.

You slapped down all the negatives you could. Even with all of the minuses and none of the plusses you could have:

* An Imp Familiar

OR:

* A Raven Familiar
and
* A levelled Imp Cohort

<snip>

Leadership: Good. Maybe too good.
Improved Familiar: Too suck too live.

-Frank

Except that your Imp Familiar has +5 increase in Natural Armour, can confer alertness, has improved evasion, can share spells, has an empathic link, can deliver touch spells and is 2 of its masters levels away from getting SR 16, so I'd say the Imp Familiar is quite a bit tougher than the Cohort (and will continue to improve without sucking up party xp and doesnt have an absolute limit of 6HD with correpsonding hit points).

 

[DM2]

Except that your Imp Familiar has +5 increase in Natural Armour, can confer alertness, has improved evasion, can share spells, has an empathic link, can deliver touch spells and is 2 of its masters levels away from getting SR 16, so I'd say the Imp Familiar is quite a bit tougher than the Cohort (and will continue to improve without sucking up party xp and doesnt have an absolute limit of 6HD with correpsonding hit points).

For those of us in the 3.5 realm, cohorts don't suck any experience at all.

DM2

 

[Nail]

Cohorts don't suck....XP, that is.

Cohorts earn XP as follows:

• The cohort does not count as a party member when determining the party’s XP.
  
• Divide the cohort’s level by the level of the PC with whom he or she is associated (the character with the Leadership feat who attracted the cohort).
  
• Multiply this result by the total XP awarded to the PC and add that number of experience points to the cohort’s total.
  
• If a cohort gains enough XP to bring it to a level one lower than the associated PC’s character level, the cohort does not gain the new level—its new XP total is 1 less than the amount needed attain the next level.

 

[BVB]

For those of us in the 3.5 realm, cohorts don't suck any experience at all.

Yeah. Actually, they're *worth* experience points. I like to kill a couple just before pitching camp between sessions, for that extra XP boost that leads to pleasant dreams.

 

[Nail]

Since we've been talking about Imps as cohorts, I've been perusing their section on the SRD. I notice they have no Level Adjustment listed. This implies that they can't be a Cohort.

So, a Wiz can only have one as an Improved Familiar, and in no other way.

I'm not saying that's how I'd run it IMC (I'd give 'em LA +3, for an ECL of 6); just throwing it out there.

 

[Kai Lord]

Of course if you want things to really get sick just start having your Cohorts take the Leadership feat....

And there's still no Core way to get more than one familiar, whereas I believe the Leadership feat is still up for grabs as many times as you want to take it, for a brand new Cohort and batch of followers each time. By far the most potent feat in the game.