Improved Grab and the -20

[DMFTodd]

This has probably been covered dozens of times but my search didn't find it:

"The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally or simply use the part of the body it used in the improved grab...the later, it takes a -20 penalty"

What does "conduct the grapple normally" mean? I'm thinking it means you jump in and grapple - you forgo other attacks.

Let's take a Chuul which has two claw attacks that can grapple.

1) Chuul hits with claw, starts grapple without the -20. Can it still attack with the second claw?

2) Chuul misses with 1st claw. Hits with second claw, starts improved grab. Does this have to be at -20 since it has used an attack already?

Or does the rule simply apply to whether or not the creature is considered grappled or not.

1) Chuul hits with 1st claw, start grappl at -20, gets PC. Hits with 2nd claw, starts grapple at -20, gets PC. It is now grappling 2 creatures but is not considered grappled?

2) Chuul misses with 1st claw, hits with second, does a grapple at full bonus. Chuul is considered grappled.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Or does the rule simply apply to whether or not the creature is considered grappled or not.

This is my understanding of it.

 

[Thanee]

The -20 is fully optional and only applies, if the creature does not want to suffer the penalties for being in a grapple itself.

Generally, I would start the grapple after the creature's full attack action and have it perform all attacks normally for the turn, then, if any grapple was initiated during the full attack, proceed from there. Strictly by the rules, however, the full attack would be stopped after the first successful grapple attempt, because then the creature could not perform any other natural weapon attacks anymore and since it was using natural weapons, cannot benefit from a high BAB for that turn.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Li Shenron]

If a creature with this special attack hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required. Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text). When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight.

I always thought it was meant like this (imagine an octopus-like creature):

1a. the monster does a touch attack to initiate a grapple, if it hits then it makes the grapple check (no penalty); no AoO (tho this is always unclear...)

OR

1b. the monster attacks normally, if it hits then it deals damage and also can make the grapple check (no penalty) to start a grapple; no AoO

(option b only with Improved Grab)

but most importantly:

2a. the monster can continue the grapple normally, making checks to deal grapple damage for example (no penalty); it is considered grappled

OR

2b. the monster can just hold the grappled creature with that tentacle, and use its other tentacles to attack the rest of the party; it is not considered grappled, but if it needs to do grapple checks (e.g. the grappled creature tries to escape) or if it wants to do a grapple check against it (e.g. use an attack to deal grapple damage), or against someone else (e.g. initiate a second grapple) it gets -20 to those checks

 

[Li Shenron]

Basically 2a is like concentrating on the one you've grappled: you use your full-bonuses but are considered grappled and other foes can take advantage of it.

Improved Grab gives you the option (if you want) 2b of not concentrating on the one you've grappled, just do the minimum required to try maintain the grapple [but with -20 if he wants to escape, or if you want to pin or crush] and keep fighting other foes without disadvantages.

 

[azhrei_fje]

Given that creatures with improved grab usually have a pretty good grapple bonus, suppose that octopus in the previous example hits and makes a free grapple check. It wins. So now the opponent is caught by a tentacle...

Another grapple check (at the regular bonus) could put that creature into a pin, right? The octopus can do that, and on all *successive* rounds, take the -20 penalty while it concentrates on other enemies, right? So the opponent who was pinned takes the -4 penalty for being pinned (against the octopus' -20 penalty), but even if it escapes the pin, it still has to escape the grapple, right?

What I'm wondering is if this is a reasonable tactic for a multi-limbed creature with a good grapple bonus, given that each tentacle of an octopus gets a separate attack roll each round. It could pin 2-3 of its enemies and by pinning them, they're pretty much helpless...

And the -20 penalty only applies to grapple checks against opponents who are already held (see the SRD quote, above), right? So taking a -20 on the grapple check of the first opponent does not require a -20 grapple check on the attempt to *catch* a second opponent with a different limb? But once the second opponent is *also* grappled, then grapple checks against it are also at -20?

Thanks all!