Improved Grab, Grapple, Constrict, Snatch

[Valminder]

I have a question to ask to you all. I know it's complex, but I tried
to put everything in.

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IMPROVED GRAB:
Imagine this creature for my example : Medium-size, Str 10, BAB +8, 1
Slam +8 melee (1d6), Improved Grab (Slam), Constrict 1d8

The creature hits with its slam attack, causes damage (1d6) and
attempts the grapple check immediately.
-Is the grapple check at +8 or at +3 (since it's a second attack in
the same round) ? [I would use the +8]
If the grapple checks succeeds, the hold is made, and the creature can
constrict (1d8).

Next round, if the target does not escape the hold:
If it can make 2 grapple checks to damage its target, as per its BAB
of +8/+3, it would have two grapple checks (one at +8 and the other
at +3). So, if both succeed, the target would receive damage twice
for the slam and twice for the constrict (1d6+1d8+1d6+1d8).
-So, can it make more than one grapple check to damage the creature
with its slam attack AND constrict?


GRAPPLE CHECK:
It's an opposed roll, but also a kind of attack roll.
-Is a 20 an automatric hit?
-Can you have a critical hit with a grapple check? (If yes, would you
double the Slam AND Constrict damage?)
-Can you use Power Attack on a grapple check?

Since the maximum size for the target of an Improved Grab is one size
smaller than the creature, the Medium-size creature above can only
Improved Grab Small creatures.

For the normal Grapple, the size of the target in one size bigger.
So, it could grapple up to Large creatures.

So, the Medium-size creature could make a Grapple if it wanted to
Constrict a Large enemy. The Improved Grab would then be useless. If
it touches the target (+8) and the AaO fails (as per the normal
grapple rules) it has grabbed the target. Now it can automatically
make an opposed grapple check (+8) to hold the target, causing it 1d3
points of subdual damage (as per its size) AND constrict (1d8).

-Could it make a second grapple check at +3? For another 1d3 Subdual
and 1d8 Constrict.

-Once you pin a target, can you make damage in the same round (after
the pin) if you can make more than 1 grapple check?


SNATCH:
This is useful for big dragons. If a dragon snatches a creature with
its bite, it does automatic damage each round, without needing a
grapple check.

-Next round, can the dragon attack with his claws/wings/tail slap AND
make the automatic bite if it makes a full attack?
-Can it attack the snatched creature with its claws/wings/tail slap
AND bite? (Kind of tearing it to pieces)
-Can it snatch more than one creature at the same time? (1 with bite,
2 with claws and still make a tail slap and wing attacks)
-If it has hover, can it snatch 5 creatures (1 with the bite, 4 with
claws)?
-Does it receive a -20 penalty to his grapple checks to snatch more
than 1 creature?
-Can the dragon make multiple grapple checks to damage the snatched
creature with its bite? In snatch it says it's like the dragon had
the Improved Grab ability. With a BAB of 30 (+30/+25/+20/+15) can the
dragon make 4 grapple checks against a snatched target (with its
bite) and cause 4 bite damage, not using its automatic bite each
round?

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Thanks,
Val.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

IMPROVED GRAB:
Imagine this creature for my example : Medium-size, Str 10, BAB +8, 1 Slam +8 melee (1d6), Improved Grab (Slam), Constrict 1d8

The creature hits with its slam attack, causes damage (1d6) and
attempts the grapple check immediately.
-Is the grapple check at +8 or at +3 (since it's a second attack in
the same round) ? [I would use the +8]

You are right. You use the +8. Creatures with a single natural attack, or with a BAB of less than +6 can still use Improved Grab.

If the grapple checks succeeds, the hold is made, and the creature can constrict (1d8).

Next round, if the target does not escape the hold:
If it can make 2 grapple checks to damage its target, as per its BAB of +8/+3, it would have two grapple checks (one at +8 and the other at +3). So, if both succeed, the target would receive damage twice for the slam and twice for the constrict (1d6+1d8+1d6+1d8).

Yes. Normally, creatures with improved grab use the natural attack progression (eg claw, claw, bite).

So, can it make more than one grapple check to damage the creature with its slam attack AND constrict?

It can only use constrict.

GRAPPLE CHECK:
It's an opposed roll, but also a kind of attack roll.
-Is a 20 an automatric hit?

I doubt it...

-Can you have a critical hit with a grapple check? (If yes, would you double the Slam AND Constrict damage?)

I think so, but you only do 2x constrict damage. You only deal constriction damage, unless the creature's specific ability says otherwise.

Can you use Power Attack on a grapple check?

Good question... I hope not!

Since the maximum size for the target of an Improved Grab is one size smaller than the creature, the Medium-size creature above can only Improved Grab Small creatures.

Correct.

For the normal Grapple, the size of the target in one size bigger. So, it could grapple up to Large creatures.

So, the Medium-size creature could make a Grapple if it wanted to Constrict a Large enemy. The Improved Grab would then be useless. If it touches the target (+8) and the AaO fails (as per the normal grapple rules) it has grabbed the target. Now it can automatically make an opposed grapple check (+8) to hold the target, causing it 1d3 points of subdual damage (as per its size) AND constrict (1d8).

Constriction damage is dealt the next round, not on the first round. During the first round, you deal slam damage, then make a grapple check. If you succeed at grappling the creature, you can constrict it next round. That's all you can do.

Could it make a second grapple check at +3? For another 1d3 Subdual and 1d8 Constrict.

It could make another attempt, yes.

-Once you pin a target, can you make damage in the same round (after the pin) if you can make more than 1 grapple check?

If you have the ability to make another grapple check (eg multiple natural attacks, high BAB and slam attacks), then yes. You don't automatically gain an additional grapple check, however.

SNATCH:
This is useful for big dragons. If a dragon snatches a creature with its bite, it does automatic damage each round, without needing a grapple check.

-Next round, can the dragon attack with his claws/wings/tail slap AND make the automatic bite if it makes a full attack?

I believe so.

-Can it attack the snatched creature with its claws/wings/tail slap AND bite? (Kind of tearing it to pieces)

Yup.

-Can it snatch more than one creature at the same time? (1 with bite, 2 with claws and still make a tail slap and wing attacks)

I'm not sure about the answer to this question, so please take the following two statements with a grain of salt each.

It needs one appendage per creature that has been snatched. You can't hold two halflings in the mouth, for instance.

To be on the safe side, check to see if a creature can grab more than one victim... I think the answer is no.

-If it has hover, can it snatch 5 creatures (1 with the bite, 4 with claws)?

I guess so.

-Does it receive a -20 penalty to his grapple checks to snatch more than 1 creature?

Nope, assuming it can grab more than one creature.

You suffer the -20 penalty only if you use the "wrong part of the body" to grapple a creature. If you still manage to grapple the victim, then you don't lose your Dex bonus to AC, and aren't vulnerable to sneak attacks.

-Can the dragon make multiple grapple checks to damage the snatched creature with its bite? In snatch it says it's like the dragon had the Improved Grab ability. With a BAB of 30 (+30/+25/+20/+15) can the dragon make 4 grapple checks against a snatched target (with its bite) and cause 4 bite damage, not using its automatic bite each round?

A dragon uses the natural attack progression, not the manufactured weapon/slam progression. Please try not to confuse these two. It doesn't matter what the dragon's BAB is, it only gets one bite attack (unless it uses Haste), so it can only deal bite damage once per round to the victim.

 

[Brekki]

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IMPROVED GRAB:
Imagine this creature for my example : Medium-size, Str 10, BAB +8, 1 Slam +8 melee (1d6), Improved Grab (Slam), Constrict 1d8

The creature hits with its slam attack, causes damage (1d6) and
attempts the grapple check immediately.
-Is the grapple check at +8 or at +3 (since it's a second attack in the same round) ? [I would use the +8]
If the grapple checks succeeds, the hold is made, and the creature can constrict (1d8).

The grapple check is at +8, since it is part of the first attack.

Next round, if the target does not escape the hold:
If it can make 2 grapple checks to damage its target, as per its BAB of +8/+3, it would have two grapple checks (one at +8 and the other at +3). So, if both succeed, the target would receive damage twice for the slam and twice for the constrict (1d6+1d8+1d6+1d8).
-So, can it make more than one grapple check to damage the creature with its slam attack AND constrict?

Yes it would. The constrict damage applies with any won grapple check that you use to do damage.

GRAPPLE CHECK:
It's an opposed roll, but also a kind of attack roll.
-Is a 20 an automatric hit?
-Can you have a critical hit with a grapple check? (If yes, would you double the Slam AND Constrict damage?)
-Can you use Power Attack on a grapple check?

No automatic hits/crits/power attack. You can initiate the same ammount of grapple checks, as you have attacks from your BaB, but it's not an attack.

Since the maximum size for the target of an Improved Grab is one size smaller than the creature, the Medium-size creature above can only Improved Grab Small creatures.

For the normal Grapple, the size of the target in one size bigger.
So, it could grapple up to Large creatures.

So, the Medium-size creature could make a Grapple if it wanted to
Constrict a Large enemy. The Improved Grab would then be useless. If it touches the target (+8) and the AaO fails (as per the normal grapple rules) it has grabbed the target. Now it can automatically make an opposed grapple check (+8) to hold the target, causing it 1d3 points of subdual damage (as per its size) AND constrict (1d8).

-Could it make a second grapple check at +3? For another 1d3 Subdual and 1d8 Constrict.

He can make a second grapple check to damage as an unarmed strike (+ constrict), or try to pin his opponent.

-Once you pin a target, can you make damage in the same round (after the pin) if you can make more than 1 grapple check?

Yes you can, if you have the BaB to do so.

SNATCH:
This is useful for big dragons. If a dragon snatches a creature with its bite, it does automatic damage each round, without needing a grapple check.

-Next round, can the dragon attack with his claws/wings/tail slap AND make the automatic bite if it makes a full attack?

Yes it can. The bite doesn't need an attack roll.

-Can it attack the snatched creature with its claws/wings/tail slap AND bite? (Kind of tearing it to pieces)

I'd say no, but that's not a rule. Maybe if the snatched creature was large or huge.

-Can it snatch more than one creature at the same time? (1 with bite, 2 with claws and still make a tail slap and wing attacks)

Yes it can. Remember the -20 rule. It grapples only with one appendage.

-If it has hover, can it snatch 5 creatures (1 with the bite, 4 with claws)?

I think it can, though I don't have the snatch feat rules here.

-Does it receive a -20 penalty to his grapple checks to snatch more than 1 creature?

It recieves a -20 on every grapple check if it uses only one appendage, so even with that first bite/grapple.

-Can the dragon make multiple grapple checks to damage the snatched creature with its bite? In snatch it says it's like the dragon had the Improved Grab ability. With a BAB of 30 (+30/+25/+20/+15) can the dragon make 4 grapple checks against a snatched target (with its bite) and cause 4 bite damage, not using its automatic bite each round?

I think it can. Any creature can make grapple checks as often as his BaB allows. It would seem (to me), a lot more logical then trying to claw at the creature that's half in your mouth.

 

[kreynolds]

[You suffer the -20 penalty only if you use the "wrong part of the body" to grapple a creature.

Say what? Wu'chu'talkin'bout Willis?

You suffer the -20 penalty when you grapple a creature with the part you used to start the grapple, and nothing else. If you use your whole body, you don't suffer the penalty.

For example, a Glabrezu will suffer a -20 to his grapple checks if he attempts to grapple you with the one claw and nothing else.

 

[Valminder]

>> IMPROVED GRAB:
>> -Is the grapple check at +8 or at +3 (since it's a second attack
>> in the same round) ? [I would use the +8]
>You are right. You use the +8. Creatures with a single natural
>attack, or with a BAB of less than +6 can still use Improved Grab.

>Yes. Normally, creatures with improved grab use the natural
> attack progression (eg claw, claw, bite).

If I read the definition correctly, this depends on the attack that can be used with Improved Grab. If it says it's the claw, it can only damage with the claw while in Improved Grab.


>>So, can it make more than one grapple check to damage the >>creature with its slam attack AND constrict?
>It can only use constrict.

In Improved Grab is says: "If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deal the damage listed for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well".

By reading this I'm a little bit confused. Can it only Constrict or can it Slam and Constrict?


>> Could it make a second grapple check at +3? For another 1d3
>> Subdual and 1d8 Constrict.
> It could make another attempt, yes.

Ok.


>> Once you pin a target, can you make damage in the same
>> round (after the pin) if you can make more than 1 grapple
>> check?
>If you have the ability to make another grapple check (eg
>multiple natural attacks

I tought that natural attacks did not influence the number of grapple checks allowed, but only the BAB did. Maybe I'm wrong.


>> SNATCH: Next round, can the dragon attack with his
>> claws/wings/tail slap AND make the automatic bite if it makes
>> a full attack?
> I believe so.

>> Can it attack the snatched creature with its claws/wings/tail
>> slap AND bite? (Kind of tearing it to pieces)
> Yup.

>> Can it snatch more than one creature at the same time? (1
>> with bite, 2 with claws and still make a tail slap and wing
>> attacks)
> It needs one appendage per creature that has been snatched.
> You can't hold two halflings in the mouth, for instance.

OK for this.


> To be on the safe side, check to see if a creature can grab more
> than one victim... I think the answer is no.

If it takes -20 on its grapple checks, yes it can.


>>If it has hover, can it snatch 5 creatures (1 with the bite, 4
>> with claws)?
>I guess so.

Ouch!


>> Does it receive a -20 penalty to his grapple checks to snatch
>> more than 1 creature?
>Nope, assuming it can grab more than one creature.

I also wouldn't give him the -20, because of the size penalties that come with Snatch, which are worse than the improved Grab.

Thanks.

 

[kreynolds]

If it takes -20 on its grapple checks, yes it can.

I also wouldn't give him the -20, because of the size penalties that come with Snatch, which are worse than the improved Grab.

Well? Make up your mind.

 

[Valminder]

Great, another answer.

>> Is the grapple check at +8 or at +3 (since it's a second attack
>> in the same round) ? [I would use the +8]
>The grapple check is at +8, since it is part of the first attack.

OK.


>> So, can it make more than one grapple check to damage the
>> creature with its slam attack AND constrict?
> Yes it would. The constrict damage applies with any won
> grapple check that you use to do damage.

So, if the creature in the example had 4 attacks based on BAB, it could then make 4 SLAM and 4 Constrict damage the same round. (since it has Improved Grab). Without Improved Grab it would be 4 "subdual" and 4 Constricts.



> No automatic hits/crits/power attack. You can initiate the same
> ammount of grapple checks, as you have attacks from your
> BaB, but it's not an attack.

OK, it's an Opposed Roll, not a "melee attack roll" as the Power Attack states.


>> For the normal Grapple (without Improved Grab) ... it could
>> make a normal Grapple. If it touches the target ... it can
>> make an opposed grapple check to hold the target, causing it
>> 1d3 points of subdual damage (as per its size) AND constrict
>> (1d8).
>> Could it make a second grapple check at +3? For another 1d3
>> Subdual and 1d8 Constrict.
> He can make a second grapple check to damage as an
> unarmed strike (+ constrict), or try to pin his opponent.

So, creatures with Constrict are really dangerous.


>> Once you pin a target, can you make damage in the same
>> round (after the pin) if you can make more than 1 grapple
> Yes you can, if you have the BaB to do so.

OK.


>> SNATCH: Next round, can the dragon attack with his
>> claws/wings/tail slap AND make the automatic bite if it makes
>> a full attack?
>Yes it can. The bite doesn't need an attack roll.

OK.


>> Can it attack the snatched creature with its claws/wings/tail
>> slap AND bite? (Kind of tearing it to pieces)
> I'd say no, but that's not a rule. Maybe if the snatched creature
> was large or huge.

What could prevent this in the rules? It's not really clear for me.


>> Can it snatch more than one creature at the same time?
> Yes it can. Remember the -20 rule. It grapples only with one
> appendage.

But Snatch is not the same as grapple and Improved Grab. The size of the target (3 or 4 size smaller) is really smaller than with Improved Grab (one size smaller). I thought that the Snatch Feat would remove this -20 penalty.


> If it has hover, can it snatch 5 creatures (1 with the bite, 4 with
> claws)?
>I think it can, though I don't have the snatch feat rules here.

I think so also.


>> Can the dragon make multiple grapple checks to damage the
>> snatched creature with its bite? In snatch it says it's like the
>> dragon had the Improved Grab ability. With a BAB of 30
>> (+30/+25/+20/+15) can the dragon make 4 grapple checks
>> against a snatched target (with its bite) and cause 4 bite
>> damage, not using its automatic bite each round?
> I think it can. Any creature can make grapple checks as often as
> his BaB allows. It would seem (to me), a lot more logical then
> trying to claw at the creature that's half in your mouth.

So this is like if the Dragon had the Improved Grab feat, isn't it?

Thanks for the answer.

 

[Valminder]

> quote:
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Originally posted by Valminder
> If it takes -20 on its grapple checks, yes it can.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> quote:
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Originally posted by Valminder
> I also wouldn't give him the -20, because of the size penalties > that come with Snatch, which are worse than the improved Grab.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Well? Make up your mind.

In the first quote I'm talking about the general grapple rule for the -20 penalty if you do not use your full body.

In the second one, I'm talking about the Dragon with the Snatch Feat.

That's 2 different things.

Val.

 

[Valminder]

.

 

[kreynolds]

In the first quote I'm talking about the general grapple rule for the -20 penalty if you do not use your full body.

In the second one, I'm talking about the Dragon with the Snatch Feat.

That's 2 different things.

A grapple is a grapple. I don't believe Snatch overrides Improved Grab. Meaning, if the creatures grapples with the one natural weapon, claw, pincer, appendage, etc, unless it specifically states otherwise, it suffers the standard -20 penalty for Improved Grab. AFAIK, Snatch doesn't state otherwise.