Improved Initiative: Balanced?

[Plane Sailing]

If you look at the general bonus principle:

Weapon focus is useful with *every attack* so it gets a +1 bonus.

Weapon specialisation only comes into effect each time you hit (which is less frequently) so it gets a bigger bonus of +2.

Improved Init only comes into effect once each round, so it is an even bigger bonus of +4.

(Similarly, the general ST bonus feats give +2 to a save, the more specific ones like Poison saves get +4 since it comes into play less frequently)


I would guess that this is the reasoning behind the original setting of the numbers, and playtesting found that it was reasonable so it became the standard rules.

Since initiative is rolled on a d20, +4 isn't an overwhelming benefit.

n.b. in Wheel of Time d20, a high level alga'sis'wai with an 18 dex could have a +16 init bonus

 

[ruleslawyer]

I think it's ok, but it is a close call.

However, I disagree that initiative is irrelevant after the first round of combat. That is like saying a batting order in baseball is irrelevant after the first time through the order. In fact, because a baseball game can end in the middle of the order, the first players to bat always get more at bats than the last players in the order. This is why managers always put their best hitters at the top of the order. Similarly, in combat, the players with the highest initiative rolls will get the most actions in combat.

Um, not quite a correct analogy on either the baseball or D&D side.

Managers typically put good hitters at 1st, 4th, and 5th in batting order, and fast runners in between. In the old days, when the game was a bit less about power pitcher vs. power hitter, managers also would put a good hitter at 3rd.

In baseball, however, the issue is being able to set up on-base positions for the almighty RBI. More importantly, once batting order is set, one goes through the batting order as is, minus substitutions. D&D is much different. Characters can delay actions, ready actions, and refocus, moving themselves freely up and down the initiative order. That order itself is somewhat less important than in baseball as well; in general, going first is simply better in D&D, because it adds to the chance that your opponent won't be able to act at all. "Setting up" other characters' actions is less of an issue (and can be accomplished anyway through the use of Delay).

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Improved Initiative is a solid choice but it is only "must have" for characters high in offense and low in defense. Since some players or groups prefer making those characters, Improved Initiative appears to be a necessity. It is not the case for all groups.

I agree it is a good choice for most Rogues and Wiz/Sor.

The armored Fighter, Cleric, and Paladin have many other choices that are just as good or better.

Characters that linger back early in the fight, say, an archer, can live without it, too.

Keep in mind that clever grunts often delay until they have help. Due to the peculiarities of the initiative system, charging forward with a high initiative can get you completely surrounded and beat up before your comrades in arms have a chance to blink. It is a easy way to get killed.

 

[justinsluder]

I've never heard of anyone thinking Improved Initiative is to powerful. Most of the people in my first group never even considered it because they didn't see it as worthwhile.

I think it's a great feat. After all, why not play a halfling rogue with a +9 initiative modifier at first level?

- Justin Sluder

 

[Ycore Rixle]

Um, not quite a correct analogy on either the baseball or D&D side.

I disagree, but the point is that the initiative roll is relevant after the first round.

No one says that hit points of damage rolled in the first round are irrelevant in the second. Then why say that initiative rolled in the first round is not relevant in the second?

Perhaps one might say, "Who cares what my roll is? I can refocus my intiative." But this costs time (a full-round action), just as refocusing your hit points costs time from the healer.

Over the course of a combat, a character with a high initiative roll has the choice to act more often than the character with the low initiative roll.

 

[Zerovoid]

I disagree, but the point is that the initiative roll is relevant after the first round.

No one says that hit points of damage rolled in the first round are irrelevant in the second. Then why say that initiative rolled in the first round is not relevant in the second?

Perhaps one might say, "Who cares what my roll is? I can refocus my intiative." But this costs time (a full-round action), just as refocusing your hit points costs time from the healer.

Over the course of a combat, a character with a high initiative roll has the choice to act more often than the character with the low initiative roll.

Due to the cyclical nature of iniative, going first gives you at most one more action than your opponents. You also get the chance to catch them flat footed, which is good for rogues, and arcane casters like the opportunity to get off fireballs before the fighters can get in their way.

The one possible attack at the beginning of the combat is really all you can get though. Once you have taken your action, and its your opponent's turn, it doesn't matter for future purposes whether you just went, or whether you rolled badly and are going last. You still have to wait the same amount of time between your respective attacks. Combat rounds are cyclical, and once they've began, it doesn't really matter who went in what order previously. Imp Init only seems good if you're thinking of iniative in individual rounds.

 

[Zhure]

Benefits:
-Additional Action
Disregarding actions which change your initiative (Delay, Refocus), Improved Initiative can under optimum conditions give you only one extra action because it's only critical on the first and last round of a fight.

For each round, your actions may end the fight before all your companions can react that round.

-Improved Defense
You can avoid being flat-footed, and help control the flow of combat, but this is only applicable to the first round of combat.

-Improved Offense
You can attack while your foes are still flat-footed. This also can have a downside, if you move into a flanked or otherwise untenable position to capitalize on your advantage. I've seen a Fighter go before his foes, step between them and Cleave them both before they acted. If he'd failed on his action to put them both down, he would've been flanked and in trouble.

Taken all together, these seem fairly powerful. But since they only come into play 20% of the time, it doesn't seem overly powerful. It's most useful, as noted by an earlier poster, that this feat is best for those with a high damage to defense ratio. Sorcerers and Rogues are the most likely candidates. Fighters also, because they have bonus Feats and because they want to avoid being flat-footed as often as possible.

Greg

 

[Madfox]

No matter what class the usefullnes of the feat is also dependend on the dexterity bonus of the character in question. Not to mention that even with a high bonus on the init roll, the character still is not sure of winning the initiative. At best it increases your chance of succes by 20%.

For example, a fighter with a dexterity of 8 gets relatively less out of the feat since he still will most likely be the last to act. A character with a dexterity of 18 though will increase the chance incredibly to be the first to act by taking the feat. An other impact a high dexterity will have is that being flat-footed becomes more important. To the dex 8 fighter his AC will not change wether he is flat-footed or not. So as long as he is not facing rogues he will not care whether he is flat footed. To the character with a high dexterity score this becomes increasingly more important, especially since characters with a high dexterity tends to build their whole defenses on the high dexterity (wearing lighter armour for example).

Finally there are a lot of combats were initial initiative has no impact at all. How often did we run into opponents with ready actions, so they would always be first. Or when we are the ambushers, meaning that during the surprise round we already acted and hence flat-footed arguments became void.

 

[Numion]

My players somehow end up quite often using the 'Delay' action, which of course lessens the usefullnes of imp. init. For example, they sometimes have to act after the Spellcaster or somesuch, so they don't get in the blast radius. This same thing makes the feat a must have for the blaster, because he'll sometimes hold up to whole groups actions.

 

[Ycore Rixle]

Due to the cyclical nature of iniative, going first gives you at most one more action than your opponents.

*nods* Exactly. This is why initiative is relevant even after the first round. No matter which of Mr. High Initiative's actions you call "extra," the point is he may very well have an extra action, and this has an impact on the combat as a whole, not just the first round. It absolutely does matter who went in what order previously, because later actions are predicated on the earlier ones.

As I said in my first post, I don't think improved initiative is unbalanced. I just wanted to point out that initiative is relevant even after the roll in the first round.

Very relevant, in fact, as one extra action in a combat that lasts five or fewer rounds represents at least a 20% increase in opportunities. And of couse over time and multiple battles, the player whose character rolls high on initiative will get to "go" many more times than a player whose character rolls lower.