Improved Initiative: Balanced?

[Darklone]

Imp Initiative?

Imps are ugly things. Right. But I think they are balanced.

Ok, I chime in to say, the feat is balanced. I often had a rogue with it who won initiative but didn't act a lot (throwing a dagger or so) cause he would have been taken down at once if he attacked in melee.

We played sometimes with a houserule that initiative is rolled every round again. Makes weird combats
But I have to say: Even under these circumstances, the feat wasn't too bad. It raised the probability that the high ini guys went first every round, thus eliminating a lot of randomness. (Good for the players)

Pkitty has a point that a +2 wouldn't make a big difference. +4 is ok, a rogue in my group with +9 ini often comes not much faster than the rest.

 

[jontherev]

*nods* Exactly. This is why initiative is relevant even after the first round. No matter which of Mr. High Initiative's actions you call "extra," the point is he may very well have an extra action, and this has an impact on the combat as a whole, not just the first round. It absolutely does matter who went in what order previously, because later actions are predicated on the earlier ones.

As I said in my first post, I don't think improved initiative is unbalanced. I just wanted to point out that initiative is relevant even after the roll in the first round.

Very relevant, in fact, as one extra action in a combat that lasts five or fewer rounds represents at least a 20% increase in opportunities. And of couse over time and multiple battles, the player whose character rolls high on initiative will get to "go" many more times than a player whose character rolls lower.

What is this extra action I keep hearing about? This would only happen in the rare circumstance where YOUR pc is the very last person to strike in combat, ending the battle. Not only that, but this feat only comes into effect if someone rolls within 4 of your roll. Otherwise, the feat didn't actually help you at all. I have a rogue with +10 initiative and I don't really remember a recent battle where he was the very last person to go, killing the last foe. I'd say maybe 1 out of 10 battles or so. Just because I roll a 30 and someone else rolls a 2, we get the same number of actions almost all of the time. I just don't understand your argument I guess.

Of course it matters what the initiative order is, but readying and delaying make the feat worthless for the rest of combat unless you reset (which I have done maybe twice over the last 1.5 years). The fact is, initiative is MOST important in the first round due to flatfootedness and rogues/spellcasters. After that, is much less important, and becomes chaotic. At least, it is in our games. Order changes all the time. I use delay probably in at least 20% of combats, even with my rogue. It still matters what order you go in, but the effect from the feat are minimalized after the first round.

As for the feat, yes it's balanced.

 

[Dr_Rictus]

*nods* Exactly. This is why initiative is relevant even after the first round. No matter which of Mr. High Initiative's actions you call "extra," the point is he may very well have an extra action, and this has an impact on the combat as a whole, not just the first round.

Sure, but so what? All you're saying is that what happens in the first round of combat affects the combat as a whole. If I say that something has no affect after the first round of combat, the meaning of that statement is still entirely clear, and it's still a perfectly useful thing to point out, despite the fact (so obvious that I don't think it needs pointing out) that what happens in the first round affects how the combat turns out.

So: Improved Initiative doesn't really have any affect after the first round of combat. Arguments contrary to this useful observation are, so far, only semantic.

 

[Ycore Rixle]

If I say that something has no affect after the first round of combat, the meaning of that statement is still entirely clear, and it's still a perfectly useful thing to point out, despite the fact (so obvious that I don't think it needs pointing out) that what happens in the first round affects how the combat turns out.

I think it's obvious too, but I felt it needed pointing out because, as I interpreted him, Piratecat said it wasn't:

You see, initiative is irrelevant after the first round of the fight; as such, it only has one opportunity to help or hurt.

I respect Piratecat's opinions, and I was dismayed and confused to see him say this, because like you I figured it was self-evident that initiative was relevant to the battle as a whole, just as anything that happens in any round is.

But perhaps it is just semantics after all; I was taking "irrelevant" to mean "doesn't impact in any way whatsoever," however I guess it just meant something like "does not change any die rolls after the first round." I didn't mean to cause any consternation; I think I was just interpreting the word differently.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Interestingly, those with long memories may remember that in the first days of 3e the boards were aflame with "Improved initiative too good!!" and "Everyone takes improved initiative!!" threads

How the world turns

Cheers

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I offer as "proof" to the idea that Improved Initiative can be approximated as only affecting the first round the comparison between a combat that lasts 2 rounds versus one that lasts 20 rounds.

It is pretty obvious that Improved Initiative is very useful in a very short, violent conflict. It is also obvious that if the first round is only a small part of the conflict, Improved Initiative makes a very small difference. Keep in mind that in long fights, characters that favor Improved Initiative, those with good offense and relatively weak defense, are actually more likely to use Delay.

Now consider Weapon Focus. Only a small help in a quick hairball. But in a long fight the many, many attack rolls and synergies with other feats (Specialization, Cleave) will show a bigger and bigger effect.

 

[strongbow]

There is a subtle aspect of Impoved Initiative that comes out the longer that you play. At higher levels, initiative can determine who lives and who dies on the first round. As characters increase in level, their offensive damage output increases to amazing levels through skill, spells, and magic items. A Hold Person, Haste, Time Stop, Dispel Magic, +6d6 sneak attack, etc. on the offensive side or take your pick of defensive spells like Shield, Wall of Force, and the lot...at the beginning of combat makes a big difference the more a character increases in level.