Improved Natural Attack and Claws of the Beast

[Bront]

If I have a Psychic Warrior who has a natural claw attack normaly, and has the Improved Natural Attack: Claws feat, does the feat increase the Claws of the Beast effect?

How about if the Psychic Warrior was human (or something else without claws). Can you still take Improved natural Attack: Claws for the Claws of the Beast.

 

[3d6]

The answer to the first question is yes. Claws of the beast gives you a claw attack, Improved Natural Attack (claw) improves the damage dealt by claw attacks.

The second question is a little fuzzier. However, WotC recently said on their website here that magic items count for meeting a feat's ability score prerequisites, so I think ruling that a 1 hour/level power allows you to meet feat prerequisites would be consistant with that ruling.

 

[Bront]

That was sort of what I thought, though I would have probably said no to the second one, but I agree with your statement and can see it's merrit as well.

I'm still interested in other oppinions on this.

 

[Infiniti2000]

If I have a Psychic Warrior who has a natural claw attack normaly, and has the Improved Natural Attack: Claws feat, does the feat increase the Claws of the Beast effect?

If a feat is an effect, and I think the consensus it is, then there's an argument that INA would apply. The only question then becomes whether the "order of acquisition" of the feat and the applied power matter. The feat applies to your natural claws. When you manifest the power, you gain "new" (different) claws. The feat still applies to your original claws, so therefore it can't also apply to your new ones.

So, no.

How about if the Psychic Warrior was human (or something else without claws). Can you still take Improved natural Attack: Claws for the Claws of the Beast.

This question is entirely about how you rule the levelling up process. I strongly disagree with glass (I believe it's glass) on this point and he strongly disagrees with me. If you rule as glass does that levelling up is an instantaneous event (or close to it), then you can manifest the power, level up, gain the feat and apply it to your existing claws, and then later on lose the power and access to the feat. I'm not sure in such a case what happens when/if you use other methods to acquire claws.

I do not rule that way, however (feel free to read my houserules pages) and thus disallow taking a feat whereby you meets the prerequisites from a temporarily power/spell.

On other point. The feat INA applies to "one of the creature's natural attack forms" or one "natural weapon." Thus, if you have two claws and you want to apply INA to both, you need to take the feat twice. Or, at least that's a debatable position. I don't hold that position (I interpret "claws" to be one attack form), however.

 

[Bront]

If a feat is an effect, and I think the consensus it is, then there's an argument that INA would apply. The only question then becomes whether the "order of acquisition" of the feat and the applied power matter. The feat applies to your natural claws. When you manifest the power, you gain "new" (different) claws. The feat still applies to your original claws, so therefore it can't also apply to your new ones.

So, no.

My thought on this is, all the power does at this point is simply modify/sharpen your claws, so why not? Particularly when the feat says that all attacks of that type are effected.

But I see by your other responce you are generaly against mixing temporary and permanent bonuses and feats, so from that aspect, I can fully understand your position.

 

[Infiniti2000]

But I see by your other responce you are generaly against mixing temporary and permanent bonuses and feats, so from that aspect, I can fully understand your position.

I am, but I don't think that plays a part in my answer to the first one.

My thought on this is, all the power does at this point is simply modify/sharpen your claws, so why not? Particularly when the feat says that all attacks of that type are effected.

The power does NOT modify/sharpen your claws. It flat out GIVES you claws. If you have none, and most psions will not, then you gain them. If you have some, then what happens? Your existing ones are unusable, right? Can you use the new ones or the old ones at your choice? I'd say no, you can only use the new ones. The feat still has to modify the old ones, your real claws are not thrown away or anything.

I would, in fact, claim that Claws of the Beast could possibly give you claws that are worse than your normal claws.

 

[Bront]

No offense intended by that Infiniti.

I take it you're at odds with the WoTC saying that items can let you qualify for feats?

And yes, they could be worse, though then why bother with the power then?

 

[Infiniti2000]

No offense intended by that Infiniti.

None taken! I didn't even realize that offense was possible from what you wrote. And, you can ask KD, Mistwell, irdeggman, IcyCool, werk, et al about how thin-skinned I am perceived to be.

I take it you're at odds with the WoTC saying that items can let you qualify for feats?

Yes, most definitely. I think it's a terrible rule.

And yes, they could be worse, though then why bother with the power then?

Exactly. But, how can they be worse? It creates a paradox. You still have your existing claws, so if you use the power and gain new, worse ones, the old, better ones will still be there. Is there anything in the power that eliminates your old claws? Obviously, this issue is not answered in the power's description, which is why I offered my take on it. My questions are mostly rhetorical, geared towards helping you understand where I obtained my position.

But, keep in mind the opposing view. INA applies to any claws you have no matter how you get them. A druid would thus get INA for every form. I don't agree with this and think that you choose the specific claws, much like you choose the SPA for quicken spell-like ability.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Exactly. But, how can they be worse? It creates a paradox. You still have your existing claws, so if you use the power and gain new, worse ones, the old, better ones will still be there. Is there anything in the power that eliminates your old claws?

"... psionically transforming your hands into deadly claws..."

If your hands possess claws already, those claws are part of the hands that are psionically transformed into something else.

-Hyp.

 

[MarkB]

But, keep in mind the opposing view. INA applies to any claws you have no matter how you get them. A druid would thus get INA for every form. I don't agree with this and think that you choose the specific claws, much like you choose the SPA for quicken spell-like ability.

I guess one question here would be what, exactly, Improved Natural Attack represents. Is it an actual physical alteration, that makes the natural weapon in question slightly deadlier than it was (i.e. for a claw attack, the claws become sharper and/or elongated)? Or does it represent an improvement in the creature's technique, allowing him to use the same attack more adeptly, to inflict greater damage?

If it's the former, then there's a good argument for it applying only to a specific natural weapon. If it's the latter, then there's a good argument for it being applicable to any weapon of the specified type that the creature gains.

Unfortunately, the feat description does not particularly suggest which interpretation is more appropriate.