Improved Natural Attack and Claws of the Beast

[Seeten]

INA: Choose one of the creature’s natural attack forms. The damage for this natural weapon . . .

The reason it says this is because the majority of creatures have claws and a bite, and you have to choose if you are better with claws, or with biting. Or in the case of dragons, wing buffets, tail slaps, slams, and what have you. Improved Natural Attack, like Weapon Focus can be selected more than once, but it does not stack. Each time you must select a different Natural Attack to improve.

As a Dire Tiger, you take Improved Natural Attack: Claws to gain the benefit with all your claws. If you want to improve your Bite, thats INA: Bite.

This is functionally identical to taking Weapon Focus: Longsword and Weapon Focus: Flail.

The only possible point I can see from your angle is that "Claws of the Beast" arent the same specific claws that you took the feat with, but I see nowhere in the feat that says you can only use the feat with a certain specific claw, simply that your claw attacks go up one step in damage die

Improved Natural Attack [General]
Prerequisite

Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit

Choose one of the creature’s natural attack forms. The damage for this natural weapon increases by one step, as if the creature’s size had increased by one category: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.

A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.

This feat may be taken multiple times, but each time it applies to a different natural attack.

You cannot, by the text, even take the feat again for "Claws of the Beast" so I have got to assume the feat applies to all claw attacks you are capable of making.

 

[Infiniti2000]

The only possible point I can see from your angle is that "Claws of the Beast" arent the same specific claws that you took the feat with, but I see nowhere in the feat that says you can only use the feat with a certain specific claw, simply that your claw attacks go up one step in damage die

That's right, but I see it when it says "this natural weapon."

You cannot, by the text, even take the feat again for "Claws of the Beast" . . .

I'd agree with that, too, but I was clear in that that's a separate issue.

 

[Seeten]

So your contention, then, is that "Claws of the Beast" are a psionic weapon, and not a natural weapon?

Thats easy to hash out, depending on whether or not you can use them as a secondary attack, while using a weapon primary.

Lets check the SRD. =)

You call forth the aggressive nature of the beast inherent in yourself, psionically transforming your hands into deadly claws. You gain two natural attacks with your claws, each dealing 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if you are Large, or 1d3 if you are Small) plus your Strength bonus.

Your claws are natural weapons, so you are considered armed when attacking with them, and they can be affected by powers, spells, and effects that enhance or improve natural. You can choose to deal nonlethal damage with your claws, taking the standard -4 penalty on your attack roll.

Looks to me like them claws are natural weapons. It states it twice, in 2 seperate paragraphs.

Or, your contention is you must take the feat once, and it only affects one single claw. In this case, I'd want our Dire Tiger to submit to telling us which of his paws has the 1 claw he has improved, because the other 3 are normal. And then, I sunder it, destroying his feat choice. Even if he has regeneration, when it regrows, it wont be "this claw".

I think that sounds pretty silly. I would be much more likely to say common sense states that "This natural weapon" means "Claw" because thats what you took. Claw with a graft, claw of the beast, claw of the vampire, claw of granny mcphee, all are This natural weapon, "claw".

I think Hypersmurf hit the nail on the head when he compared it to WF: Bastard Sword. It doesnt mean the single solitary bastard sword in your hand, it means any bastard sword.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I commented earlier about the 'claw' vs. 'claws' distinction.

Well, you did, and that's what confuses me.

"Thus, if you have two claws and you want to apply INA to both, you need to take the feat twice. Or, at least that's a debatable position. I don't hold that position (I interpret "claws" to be one attack form), however."

Firstly, it's not really debatable - the Dire Tiger is an example in the Core Rules that shows that one feat applies to all its claws.

Secondly, if you interpret claws to be one attack form, why are you arguing that a feat that applies to 'claws' doesn't apply to other claws?

I don't read INA to be applied to a generic type of natural weapon that should the creature ever possess any similar type of weapon, the feat applies.

So if the Dire Tiger had an ability that allowed it, under certain circumstances, to 'gain a claw attack', it should deal 1d6 damage, since that claw attack would not be affected by the Improved Natural Attack feat?

-Hyp.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Or, your contention is you must take the feat once, and it only affects one single claw.

This brings up an interesting point. What makes you lose the original claws? You gain two natural attacks, you don't explicitly lose any.

Secondly, if you interpret claws to be one attack form, why are you arguing that a feat that applies to 'claws' doesn't apply to other claws?

I'm not arguing "a feat", I'm arguing INA. "A feat" could include WF and that analogy doesn't work, so don't be so generic. As to why, it's because they're 'other claws'.

So if the Dire Tiger had an ability that allowed it, under certain circumstances, to 'gain a claw attack', it should deal 1d6 damage, since that claw attack would not be affected by the Improved Natural Attack feat?

Most likely, yes. Unless the ability worded it such that the new claws would be identical to the old ones in such a way as to encompass INA. In other words, if a Dire Tiger is polymorphed into a black bear, does his claws do 1d4 or 1d6? Unless you know what word(s) I blacked out, you can't answer it, can you? I could have instead written polymorphed and animal growthed. Or something else that didn't cause a loss of INA.

 

[Hypersmurf]

This brings up an interesting point. What makes you lose the original claws? You gain two natural attacks, you don't explicitly lose any.

But your hands are transformed into claws. If your existing claws are part of your hands, they're part of what's getting transformed...

Most likely, yes. Unless the ability worded it such that the new claws would be identical to the old ones in such a way as to encompass INA.

Just "gains two additional claw attacks", say.

In other words, if a Dire Tiger is polymorphed into a black bear, does his claws do 1d4 or 1d6? Unless you know what word(s) I blacked out, you can't answer it, can you? I could have instead written polymorphed and animal growthed. Or something else that didn't cause a loss of INA.

Er... what? Are you saying that the Dire Tiger's Improved Natural Attack (Claw) feat does or doesn't apply to the claw attacks he makes in Bear form?

I'd say "Of course it does - they're claws".

Note that some lycanthropes in the MM have an Improved Natural Attack feat that applies to a bite or claw in their hybrid form, and also applies to a bite or claw in their animal form when they use their alternate form ability to assume a different shape. Is that different to a Dire Tiger polymorphed into a bear? Is it different to a hybrid-form weretiger whose hands are psionically transformed into claws?

-Hyp.