Improved Unarm Strike and Grapple

[dcollins]

The order of grappling, per PH p. 137:

(1) Attack of Opportunity.
(2) Grab (touch attack).
(3) Hold (opposed check).
(4) Move In.
(5) Grappling.

The first AOO is certainly not from moving in -- you don't move in until 3 steps later, after both the "grab" and "hold" are successful.

Then, "move in" additionally states: "Moving, as normal provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening enemies, but not from yoyur target".

 

[Brekki]

Thx guys, exactly what I ment

 

[Martin Olarin]

The order of grappling, per PH p. 137:

(1) Attack of Opportunity.
(2) Grab (touch attack).
(3) Hold (opposed check).
(4) Move In.
(5) Grappling.

The first AOO is certainly not from moving in -- you don't move in until 3 steps later, after both the "grab" and "hold" are successful.

Then, "move in" additionally states: "Moving, as normal provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening enemies, but not from yoyur target".

If the AOO is from making a touch attack that would suggest that Improved unarmed strike would negate it making the Improved Grapple feat in OA unneeded - yes?

Follow up question - given that grappleing limits your opponet to useing small weapons aren't the feats given in OA a little too powerfull?

 

[Brekki]

No it's not ... the AoO is because the attacker has to let down his defense to be able to make the grapple. It doesn't matter if you have Improved Unarmed Strike, are a monk, or doing it with a touch spell on your hands .... the initial touch attack always provokes an AoO (if you are in the enemies threatened area).

The feats in OA can be very powerfull, but not more so than any combination of other feats (IMO).

 

[Legildur]

From SRD:

Use touch spell on one target [Standard][AoO: No]

Description: A combatant may take a move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. A combatant can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on itself, but to touch an opponent, the combatant must succeed at an attack.

Spell touch attacks don't create AoO (for the melee touch attack)as they are seen by the defender as a credible threat to be avoided.

 

[el-remmen]

Well, I have always ruled that the AoO from grappling comes from stepping in to make the grab - because even an unarmed opponent gets an AoO against a grapple - while an unarmed opponent does not gain one against an unarmed attack. . .

I have a feat I use called "Improved Grapple", which does what "Improved Unarmed Strike" does but for grapples.

 

[Brekki]

You can change the rules as much as you want if the people in your campaign are ok with it.

The Improved Grapple feat from OA gives you a free grapple check when you hit with an unarmed attack. We houseruled that it also negates the AoO from the opponent when you use a touch attack to initiate the grapple.

 

[Ratchis]

Considering that the PHB on page 140 discusses "Armed" Unarmed Attacks under the Unarmed Attacks heading, and makes no mention of this option under Grappling shows me what the intention of the rules is. I think grappling is a powerful combat option and should cost a feat if you want the AOO to be negated.

My $.02.

 

[Brekki]

Agreed

 

[reapersaurus]

The Improved Grapple feat from OA gives you a free grapple check when you hit with an unarmed attack. We houseruled that it also negates the AoO from the opponent when you use a touch attack to initiate the grapple.

From OA:

Improved Grapple:
If you hit with an unarmed strike, you deal normal
damage and can attempt to start a grapple as a free action with-out provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack
is required.

What houserule is needed?