Improved Unarm Strike and Grapple

[Brekki]

The Improved Grapple only gives you a free grapple check when you hit with a normal attack, not with a touch attack. If you want to grapple someone who is wearing a big armor, making a touch attack to initiate the grapple, you still get a AoO from your opponent. We decided IG can be used both ways:
- When you hit with a normal attack, you get a free grapple check
- When you initiate a grapple by making a touch attack, you don't get an AoO from your opponent.

 

[Martin Olarin]

After giving it some thought and reading what you all have written here I've come to the opinion that:

A. Grappling is a very powerfull combat option as it limits one's opponent to small weapons and spells without a somatic component.

B. As a result of A, above, no feat should automatically allow a character to bypass the AOO born of attempting a grapple. So, despite it making sense within the rules as written, Improved Unarmed Strike should not negate this AOO. Instead, either with Improved Unarmed Strike or possibly an add-on Feat to Improved Unarmed Strike, the grappler should make an oppossed role of some kind to avoid the AOO.


Any opinions on how to make this work mechanics wise? I was thinking an opposed BAB + Str Mod role with the grappler getting special bonuses for high Bluff and tumble skills.

 

[reapersaurus]

A. Grappling is a very powerfull combat option as it limits one's opponent to small weapons and spells without a somatic component.

I disagree.

Compare Grappling to almost any other attack form.

You give up SO much with the grappling maneuver.
There are SO many ways for the victim to foil your attack, it's not even funny.

The worst slap in the face is that after you've sacrificed so many actions and successful rolls to Pin the opponent..... they automatically 'escape' at the beginning of their turn!
So you're wasting an action every round, just simply to immobilize them, not doing any damage.

How is that powerful? (and don't bring up an example that pits a Large Ogre grappling a Halfling Wizard, or something - use a balanced example, of fighters of equal level trying to do something against the other by grappling)

 

[Shalewind]

they automatically 'escape' at the beginning of their turn!

Can you auto-escape if you have lost your actions? I thought pin made you loose your actions for you next turn.

I don't have much in the way of examples.

In theory if the attacker is a monk and can keep the opponent pinned, he can use the other attacks for full damage.

Opponents with ridiculously high ACs can be negated with good grappling (i.e. opposed checks determine damage, not attack and strikes).

It's wonderful as a ready action against mages and such.

If your opponent has uber-sword+10, maybe you want to even the field a little bit?

Personally I don't think Grappling is over-powered. I think it is a great versatile combat option.

 

[reapersaurus]

Can you auto-escape if you have lost your actions? I thought pin made you loose your actions for you next turn.

Personally I don't think Grappling is over-powered. I think it is a great versatile combat option.

What I mean by 'auto-escape' is that to keep them pinned, the grappler has to use his action to pin the grapplee every round.
The grapplee automatically goes from Pin status to Grappled status on his turn, therefore effectively getting a free 'escape' from the pinned condition to the grappled condition each and every round.

And I agree - It's not overpowered, can be effective at times, but in all, you spoke well: it is a versatile combat option, one I'm glad is in 3E.

I just wish they went further (see my input on Grappling threads and House Rules)

 

[Martin Olarin]

Grappling by itself isn't overpowered - the feats in OA and any feat that completely by passes the AOO that could block a grapple are what are, or would be, overpowered.

The monk being able to start a grapple by simply making a touch attack w/o the possibility of it being blocked by an AOO is a frightening prospect. The monk would be able to limit his opponent to using small weapons while he is doing D6 + damage.

In some ways a straight fighter is worse since he is more likely to have a higher strength than the monk, and thus is more likely to win the grapple check. A fighter grappler would effectively limit his opponents to small weapons or unarmed attacks (which may invoke AOO if the grappler has Improved Unarmed Strike depending on dm ruling). It is even more powerfull against spell casters. Add in in Weapon Focus and Specialization in grapple and you have a character well designed to take out just about any other character except the Monk (and even there the Monk is likely to loose the grapple oppossed role).

This line of thinking is why I would lean towards allowing a feat to avoid the initial blocking AOO with some kind of oppossed role - grapple would still be very nice - but not an automatic.

 

[reapersaurus]

The monk would be able to limit his opponent to using small weapons while he is doing D6 + damage.

I don't get your over-sensitivity to a Grappling character.

This 'deadly' monk simply does 1d6+damage instead of the grapplee's 1d3+damage?
And he needed 2 feats to do that?

Compare this 'advantage' to a Sundering character, or to a Tripping or Disarming character.

Tripping character: the feats that improve tripping are very powerful, aren't they? Don't they grant an entire free attack? So in comparison to the grappling monk geting a d3 better than his opponent, the Tripping guy gets his opponent on the ground prone, allowing only a standard attack, while the Tripper gets his full-round attack.

I'd say that's a heck of a lot better for a alternative-combat-maneuver specialist.

 

[Martin Olarin]

I don't get your over-sensitivity to a Grappling character.

This 'deadly' monk simply does 1d6+damage instead of the grapplee's 1d3+damage?
And he needed 2 feats to do that?


Compare this 'advantage' to a Sundering character, or to a Tripping or Disarming character.

Tripping character: the feats that improve tripping are very powerful, aren't they? Don't they grant an entire free attack? So in comparison to the grappling monk geting a d3 better than his opponent, the Tripping guy gets his opponent on the ground prone, allowing only a standard attack, while the Tripper gets his full-round attack.

I'd say that's a heck of a lot better for a alternative-combat-maneuver specialist.

The monk only does a D6 at low levels.

Improved trip gives a free attack but requires a straight up str oppossed role to get it - negating any advantage born or BAB. Futhermore, tripping a spellcaster isn't anymore effective than simply hitting them for damage whereas grappling them is much more so.

Sunder is perhaps your best counter example but at least there you may fail to destroy your opponents weapon by not doing enough damage and be damaged in return - and, again, sunder isn't as usefull against a spell caster.

 

[Legildur]

I see a lot of tal about grappling, AOOs, the merits of the Improved Grapple feat [OA], but I don't see any comments from anyone who currently plays a grappling character.

Next time my party composition encourages it, I'm going to make a grappling monk and see what happens. Sure, they're not the greatest all-round warrior in the world, and he might be at a disadvantage with anything larger than himself, or a slime, but lookout any enemy spellcasters trying to hide in the rear as he tumbles through the front line and takes them down (especially when you open the play with a charge using the Flying Kick feat for double damage and the stun attack followed by the free grapple check while wearing Gloves of Fearsome Grip).

Oh yeah, and he'll also carry a club of sure striking to deal with that pesky damage reduction (clubs are a special monk weapon under OA rules).

Basically, for a couple of feats (Improved Grapple, Choke Hold and/or Earth's Embrace) you can make a nasty grappling monk.

 

[ForceUser]

Han Woo in my Vietnamese story hour is a grappling monk. You can read how well he fares as the campaign progresses. The player's got no complaints so far, and the campaign is young. His stats can be found in this thread. The player has him picking up a style mastery by 4th level, and he's planned out feat-wise to 20th.

Personally I think grappling monks are nasty, especially given the right combination of feats and magic items. They will shut you down.