Improving Skills through use.

[slwoyach]

I've been thinking of tweaks for an E-6 game and the following thought came to me as an alternative to skill points.

At first level, skills are determined normally as per the paizo rules. That is, characters select a number of skills based upon their class from their class list. They gain 4 ranks in these skills. From that point on, no skill points are gained. Instead, every time a skill is successfully used in a moment of consequence where there is at least a 50% chance of failure a skill point (temporary name, will be changed to avoid confusion with RAW) is gained. When a number of skill points is gained that exceeds the character's current rank, he gains a rank in that skill. For example, a first level rogue chooses stealth as a skill. He gains 4 ranks in that skill before his first adventure. If he successfully uses that skill 5 times he now has 5 ranks, and the skill points are reset to 0. He then is in a situation where he needs to decipher a code (a skill in which he has no ranks.) Its DC is high enough that it is 50% likely he will fail. The rogue succeeds, gaining 1 skill point which immediately translates into his first rank and resets his skill points to 0.

This system obviously would need a lot of tweeking and I might have to compensate the skill heavy classes, perhaps with an ability that lets them advance skills faster, but it also would eliminate ridiculously high skill modifiers.

 

[sigma999]

Perhaps for a limited scope minigame out-of-combat, but not for the rest of the system.

Fun in moderation but if players must keep track each time it because a hassle.

 

[genshou]

The other problem with this is it forces PCs who specialize to maybe go up against challenges that they are otherwise ill equipped to handle. An elf Rogue would have to seek out tougher traps and secret doors than a human Rogue just because his race adds a bonus to the skill.

If two swim competitors with equal training were trying to improve their backstroke, there's no reason the one with better-developed muscles would have a harder time.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The other problem with this is it forces PCs who specialize to maybe go up against challenges that they are otherwise ill equipped to handle. An elf Rogue would have to seek out tougher traps and secret doors than a human Rogue just because his race adds a bonus to the skill.

Actually, if you look at some older games, they handle it pretty well, and that doesn't happen.

Skills are primarily improved with advancement, but nearly as much by use, so skills you use improve more quickly. If you use a skill during an adventure arc, it will get bonus points to improve. If you score a critical success with the skill, you get an even bigger boost.

In these systems, critical successes are those in which you get a roll on the dice that is in the top 10% of your ability- a PC with a 70% rating in sword, for instance, would have a critical success if he rolled a 7% or lower. A PC with a 98% rating in sword would have a critical success if he rolled a 9% or lower. A swordsman with a 145% chance would need a 14% roll or lower to get a critical success.

(These systems typically do opposed skill checks, and skill ratings above 100% are possible since penalties to the roll also exist.)

In D&D, all you'd have to do is figure out 2 things:

1) What a critical success is. Is it simply the Nat 20? Is it also succeeding by a certain margin (say, beating your required roll by 20%)? Some other measure?

2) Then, if someone does get a critical success, what is their reward? An additional point awarded to that skill at the end of the story arc? Immediately? Two points? Five points?

 

[slwoyach]

Amended for ease of use

Skill Points: You no longer multiply skill points by 4 at 1st level and your base maximum ranks is equal to your level.
Class Skills: When you place a skill point in a class skill, you gain a +3 class bonus to all uses of that skill. (This is the Pathfinder rule.)
Improving Skills through use: Whenever you successfully use a skill that has a 50% chance of failure or greater you gain a skill tic. This tic applies to the skill successfully used only. When you reach 5 skill tics, you gain a +1 tic bonus to uses of that skill. Reset your tics to 0 and repeat this process.

Perhaps for a limited scope minigame out-of-combat, but not for the rest of the system.

Fun in moderation but if players must keep track each time it because a hassle.

Now all players have to do is put down a tic mark each time the DM instructs them to. When you have five tics, you gain a +1 and reset.

The other problem with this is it forces PCs who specialize to maybe go up against challenges that they are otherwise ill equipped to handle. An elf Rogue would have to seek out tougher traps and secret doors than a human Rogue just because his race adds a bonus to the skill.

If two swim competitors with equal training were trying to improve their backstroke, there's no reason the one with better-developed muscles would have a harder time.

Good point. Now this system is a way to improve in addition to the normal method. This is primarily designed for an E-6 campaign, as I dislike characters being unable to change or improve after 6th level but also don't want them to become supermen (thus eliminating the point of E-6.)

 

[jedavis]

Sounds neat! I've been considering developing a similar system for some time, but haven't gotten to it. I think the 50% rule was an important part of what I was missing...

Might have to try this (though if I do, I'll mod it to include spellcasting, attack rolls, and defense. Maybe saves, too, while I'm at it.)

 

[genshou]

I think a system like this would work pretty well if it was only based on skill ranks. Characters with racial and ability bonuses would have an easier time training that way.

 

[Sempronius]

Slwoyach: The thing I see as weird with your system is that 5 tics are all that is needed, each and every skill rank (or + skill tic).
I like the idea in the OP, but with this amendment:
Each time you succeed at a skill check, you have a chance to get a skill tic. When you earn more skill ticks for a skill than you have ranks in the skill, you gain another skill rank.
The chance to gain a skill rank is double the difference between the DC of tthe check, and your skill ranks in the skill+10 plus 1 on a d20.
EG:
A first level elf rogue is looking for traps, and finds one. The DC was 20. The rogue has a bonus of +11 to his check: 4 ranks, +3 skill focus, +2 ability, and +2 racial.
He has a to score a 13 or lower on a d20 to gain a skill rank.

This variant actually seem to benefit those who get massive bonuses from outside their skill ranks, allowing them to take harder challenges, while those without have to suffer some measly 1 or 4 out of 20 chance to get a skill tic.

It would be interesting to see what people think of this one.