Level Up (A5E) Improving spells

[Guest 6801328]

Oh, easy peasy. Let’s say a monster casts burning hands.

DM: “The caster holds his hands with his thumbs together and his fingers outstretched, and a thin sheet of flames erupts from his fingertips. Alyssa and Bob, you’re both in the affected area. What do you do?
Alyssa: I try to roll out of the way of the flames before they hit me!
DM: Ok, make a DC 12 Dexterity saving throw. On a success you’ll only get singed for half damage, and either way you can use your reaction to move to a space outside the cone.
Alyssa: rolls Damn, I got a 9.
DM: Your reflexes aren’t quite quick enough. You can move out of the cone, but you’ll still take rolls 7 damage. Bob, what are you doing?
Bob: I’m not very nimble... I’m just going to grit my teeth and try to tough it out.
DM: You’ll take a direct hit from the flames, so you’ll be taking the full 7 if you do that. But if you pass a DC 12 Constitution save you can keep it together enough to make an attack against him with your reaction.
Bob: rolls 15!
DM: Awesome, make that attack roll.
Bob: Can I try to shove him prone instead of doing damage?
DM: Absolutely, let’s see that Strength check. The caster got a... rolls 11.
Bob: rolls 18!

I agree it's easy (ish?) for the DM to improvise in cases like this. What I think is hardeis to create a set of simple, clean, generalized rules that will work across a broad range of spells, without requiring a block of text for every spell.

 

[Horwath]

How about having 10th level spells for full casters?

One 10th level slot at class level 19?

It could be used for upscaling mostly or some new powerful spells?

Also, do you have in mind a 2/3 caster class. Like 3.5E bard?

level 1-7 spells?

Class level 1 - 1st level spells,
Class level 4 - 2nd level spells,
Class level 7 - 3rd level spells,
Class level 10 - 4th level spells,
Class level 13 - 5th level spells,
Class level 16 - 6th level spells,
Class level 19 - 7th level spells,

Warpriest? some kind of paladin/cleric hybrid?
Or warden? ranger/druid hybrid?

 

[Lanefan]

I agree it's easy (ish?) for the DM to improvise in cases like this. What I think is hardeis to create a set of simple, clean, generalized rules that will work across a broad range of spells, without requiring a block of text for every spell.

Personally I don't mind a block of text for every spell if a) it means the spell can work in ways and-or have effects unique to itself and not just more-or-less replicate one or more other spells and b) if the wording in that block of text is clear and unambiguous. D&D has never really done b) well.

The risk of shoehorning things into keywords or general rules is that much of the potential uniqueness is lost.

 

[Haldrik]

How about having 10th level spells for full casters?

One 10th level slot at class level 19?

In my eyes, the only level 10 spell is Wish. The crown of all spells!

Perhaps every fullcaster should get it, as a manifestation of mind over matter.

 

[Haldrik]

You know, I could live with a book that had the spell descriptions, sorted first by level and then alphabetically.

Of course, I would then need an alphabetic spell index page, that would tell me which level I would find a certain spell. But I would be fine with that.

When choosing a spell for a slot, I would be highly interested in comparing which spells are more powerful or more situationally useful. So I want to see their descriptions side-by-side with other spells of the same slot level.

 

[Stalker0]

In my eyes, the only level 10 spell is Wish. The crown of all spells!

Perhaps every fullcaster should get it, as a manifestation of mind over matter.

Agreed, if I look at all of the 9th level spells currently, Wish is the only one that stands head and shoulders above the rest. Others are "good", a few are "crap", but most just do the job of being ridiculously powerful.

 

[Scott Christian]

I may be in the minority here, but adding to the spell description I think would improve it - especially with noticeable flair. So if you have a good creative writer, I would go down that hole to see what it looks like. Even simple spells, like magic missile could easily have added description text. It could range from what the spell may smell like, the gestures and words used to create the spell, its color, where it draws its power from, what happens to the spell caster for the few seconds they are casting the spell, its sound, etc.

 

[Haldrik]

I may be in the minority here, but adding to the spell description I think would improve it - especially with noticeable flair. So if you have a good creative writer, I would go down that hole to see what it looks like. Even simple spells, like magic missile could easily have added description text. It could range from what the spell may smell like, the gestures and words used to create the spell, its color, where it draws its power from, what happens to the spell caster for the few seconds they are casting the spell, its sound, etc.

The very first sentence should be the simple concept without technical terms or math. This is the elevator pitch. Then can come something poetic. Then the comes math. Hopefully a spell statblock is already in place. The math description is to clarify the context of the technical terms.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Maybe a big ask, but I'd think it would be nice if spell that are mostly an improvement over one of lower spell level be upcasting options for said lower spell instead of being their own spell:

ex.
Silent Image -> Major Image -> Mirage Arcane
Call Storm -> Sleet Storm -> Control Weather
Tidal Wave -> Whirlwind -> Tsunami
Blink -> Word of Recall -> Scatter
Cure wound -> mass cure wounds -> Heal
Polymorph -> true polymorph

And merge the reverse-able spells

ex.
Cure wound<->Inflict wound
Bestow curse <-> Remove curse

This would lower the number of spell dramatically, but be a great boost for those casters with few known spells.

 

[glass]

In my eyes, the only level 10 spell is Wish. The crown of all spells!

Which highlights the problem with retrofitting a 10th-level slot onto an extant 9-level list. Wish is already established to be 9th level, which means all our level-10 spells need to be stronger than it.

Pathfinder 2e makes Wish 10th level, but it is not aiming to be backward compatible with anything.

_
glass.