Improving the Expert?

Crothian · Dec 10, 2002

ACtually, now that I think about it the Smart hero from d20 Modern might be perfect for this.

hong · Dec 11, 2002

randomling said:
Confession: this all comes from me having tried to do stats for the West Wing characters and thinking the Expert class didn't do them justice. They're heroes, but they don't fight: hence PC-worthy Exoert class?

The whole point of PC classes in D&D is that they _do_ fight. D&D is designed around the philosophy that the central mission for PCs is to fight monsters (and take their treasure). Trying to design a noncombatant class that can still hold its own in combat isn't a well-posed question.

randomling · Dec 11, 2002

hong said:
The whole point of PC classes in D&D is that they _do_ fight. D&D is designed around the philosophy that the central mission for PCs is to fight monsters (and take their treasure). Trying to design a noncombatant class that can still hold its own in combat isn't a well-posed question.

I guess my whole point was that this class would not be able to hold its own in combat. It's a subversion of the normal D&D philosophy, I grant you. D&D normally assumes that a class with a PC-type level of power is going to be an adventuring type (ie, good in combat, a spellcaster, or a rogue type).

I was wondering, what would happen if a class was as good at something *else* as a PC is as fighting or magic? (And I wanted a class to give to the West Wing main cast!) What about the Olympic athlete, Nobel-winning scientist, etc?

But I do know it's not the normal D&D way of going about things. I'm experimenting!

hong · Dec 11, 2002

randomling said:
I was wondering, what would happen if a class was as good at something *else* as a PC is as fighting or magic? (And I wanted a class to give to the West Wing main cast!) What about the Olympic athlete, Nobel-winning scientist, etc?

In which case, you don't need to change the expert at all. An Nth level expert will have N+3 ranks in 3-4 skills, plus Skill Focus, plus sundry mods. Just about any mundane task in D&D can be accomplished with a DC 25 check at most, so even a 10th level expert would be able to take 10 and do the job without problems.

knight_isa · Dec 11, 2002

Experts from Skirmisher Publishing has some really good ideas for customizing the expert. I picked it up a couple of weeks ago and it looks really good. It's available through Skirmisher's website (www.skirmisher.com) or amazon.com.

There's a review for it at http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_7088.html

Viktyr Gehrig · Dec 11, 2002

The Specialist from 4CTF works really well, though it seems a little more modern-flavored. I'm going to modify it a little bit to use it as a PC replacement for Expert.

I'm still working on a way to make the Aristocrat PC-worthy, since it seems like a perfect core class.

randomling · Dec 13, 2002

Hm, a more modern flavour wouldn't be a problem for me - I'm halfway between just doing this for fun and doing it so I can put the West Wing characters' stats in Rogues Gallery. Although I may just use the Expert class in the end, makes life easier...

The reasons I wanted to change it a little:

I think the HD is too good for desk jockeys (d6? You've got to be joking). And I can't remember the BAB progression but if it's any better than wizard then... it shouldn't be.

I wanted to give them a little something extra to make them slightly more comparable in power to, say, a fighter (though as I said, outside of combat). For instance, bonus feats/special abilities like Ma'at and drdevoid mentioned. Going to try and put this into some kind of writeup, actually. Stealing many ideas wholesale!

Back soon to post the class, I hope.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts!

Azure Trance · Jan 5, 2003

There's a PRC from WOTCs board called the Professional, a PC designed Expert class. It has a lot of options / abilities since it's designed to cover all sorts of professions, from Merchants to Acrobats to Courtisans.

Mordane76 · Jan 6, 2003

Could you provide a link to that discussion, Azure Trance?

Viktyr Gehrig · Jan 7, 2003

A good start would be extending the Expert's skill points to 8 + Int modifier, as a Rogue.

Bonus skill-related feats make sense. Experts should always have access to Knowledge (all). (As far as I am concerned, Knowledge should be a class skill for all classes, but that's another story) Experts should not be deadly in combat, but their low BAB and hit points, plus lack of combat special abilities, is enough to keep them out of combat-- it could still be balanced to allow them to pick their feats from any feat they meet the prerequisites for. Other classes might take levels in Expert for this ability, but remember that it weakens them in their primary class abilities.

A level based bonus to all Knowledge skill checks would be nice for the Expert as well, and access to a class ability like Bardic Knowledge.

As a side note, I have been trying to figure out how to improve the Aristocrat into a fully playable PC class. I'm thinking that giving them the Psychic Warrior's bonus feat progression, replacing Weapon Specialization at 6th with Leadership, would be enough to make them able to keep up with the regular PCs. Their bonus feats should apply to the Fighter bonus feat list and possibly some nobility or social-based feats.