Improving the gaming industry

[diaglo]

And its also the most hated. To really make this work not only do we need a large stable community, we need it to be diverse. And if in the planning stages people look at it and are tuned off by what they percieve as a huge d20 bias and concentration, then its not going to be truely representive.

i know my hat of d02 knows no limits.

 

[Vrecknidj]

Obvious: back in the "old days" when I started gaming (early 1980s), my friends and I found that the way to get more people into gaming was to invite them to games.

Today, my sons are among my players (they are 15 and 10). My older son's friends have joined in, and we now have two groups (one is my thirtysomething friends, my older son, and one of his friends; the other is all my sons' friends and me). Of these kids that have joined (they're all 13, 14, or 15, except for my younger son), they've been "recruited" from the ranks of church youth groups and a local theater group.

Getting more people playing is the way to get more groups and the way to get more impact on the "industry" (and I agree that the only method of voting left to the consumer is to buy only those products that stand up to the level of quality expected--my own pet peeve is the editing errors in WotC's products).

Dave

 

[PJ-Mason]

I have this thing where, if I have the time and inclination, I put "industry" in quotes when I'm talking about the game "industry". I don't think that game companies mean much when compared to gamers as a whole. When all's said and done, it's gamers who choose whether more gamers come into the hobby, or if publishers make books and games that are worth buying and playing.

It all comes back to you. All of it. Without gamers, there are no gaming companies. Without your money, all of the RPG companies can just pack up their bags and go home. GAMA, the Origins awards, these things only matter as much as you let them matter.

I largely agree with you here. There are little things the "Industry" can do to help things along, though. Things like demos and fan clubs. A few of the bigger companies do this, but many of them are just lip service and don't have aggressive polices. This problem is grounded in a bigger problem, as i see it (see bottom of post).

All in all, its up to us to get it done. The problem is that most agree with this premise, but few of us do it.
I'm guilty of that as of late. A number of factors contribute to it beyond laziness, but the guilt is there none the less.

I think that if gamers demanded more from RPG companies, if they refused to buy books that didn't receive any playtesting, if they returned a book to their FLGS for a refund because it has sloppy editing, if they stopped thinking it's OK for a game to have messed up mechanics because you can always houserule them, then things would change.

Great in theory, much tougher to pull off in practice. The average gamer is living in the dark ages as compared to us. No less smarter, they are just not the "gotta know all about it" fanatics we are. They are not nearly as informed when they walk into a LGS. They have no way of knowing whether a product was playtested. Returning books is not as easy, most stores will only let you exchange it for another book or store credit. Of course, if you were uninformed about the first book.....

A lot of LGS are not that great of an envoirnment (see below), they don't know anything beyond Money: The Gathering or Warhammer these days (generally the case). Even if they were the rare store clerk who had a clue, my experience (both as a gamer and as a former gamer clerk) has been that they wouldn't tell a prospective buyer if a book was bad. They wouldn't want to lose the sale and/or don't care. LGSs have become a poor enviorment these days. Sure there are shining examples of LGS, but i hear more and more about deficient ones these days. I live within a half hour of about 5 game stores and this is the case all around. Maybe if it were one or two it could be called a localized problem, but 5?

EDIT: Turned a nonsensical sentence into a more coherent one, or at least as coherent as I can get.

Join the club, brother!

On to my rant.....Enviornment.

<These is little more than grognard ramblings at this point, but please bear with me.>

I think many of the problems can be backtracked to Gamer Enviornment. Which is more than just your Local Game Store. Its the community in general that needs to improve. If we cleaned up a bit, we wouldn't NEED big recruiting drives. I think new gamers are interested in the rpg community all ready, we don't have to club them and drag them off. They are our to LOSE.

Game Stores:
-In my experience, Games stores have become as much as a liability as they are a help.
1) The ones around here at least, are quite ignorant in regards to PNP rpgs (comics too, if you can believe it!). They either don't know or don't care. Usually both. MTG and Warhammer make them a lot more money and have defnitely siphoned a chunk off the rpg crowd (only hurting those of us trying to get something going). I know from experience.
2) Another aspect is the hosting of game groups. The biggest of the LGS in my area does this (the others are too small to try it, in their defense), but the throngs of mtg/warhammer players completely kills any kind of gaming atmosphere you'd usually want for PNP game session. Few want to be oggled at when trying to game (those games outside of demos of course).
3) Service - As i said before, return policies aren't great (right down to hostile in some places!). Most game stores use to have gamer clubs where you could get small discounts on books (or other such considerations) for a yearly fee. Only one of the LGS in my area does/did this, but discontinued it after a short while. There is no "Will to Succeed". If the owner sees no immediate results, the endeavor dies. This is all indicative of a the new breed of Game Stores who honestly don't really give a crap about the customers other than to get the next buck. Sure they have always existed, but i think they are now the majority. They have all become the Waldensbook of gaming servive. Heh, in fact, even waldenbooks gives discounts and club prices. go figure.

All of these factors really do not create the enviornment needed to attract new gamers. Or at least avoiding scaring away any that might walk in the door to find out what this "gaming thing" is about. The LGs is the only real face the rpg industry has to the average consumer and quite often these days, its a face not even a mother could love!


I, Gamer:
The average gamer (this means me too) doesn't provide a great enviornment for new gamers. This diatribe is really only relevant to the fringe gamer introduction. Most players seemed to be introduced to gamer from family and friends. I think that method is still the dominant one today. The other methods seem to be more
1) We are too damn clannish. Its a little hard to tell, but i think its much worse now than it ever was. At least the gamers in my area cocoon in their homes and don't come until dark and keep to the shadows. Its bad enough that we are afraid of our own shadow, but now we keep pigeon-holing each other by "favorite" gaming systems. There didn't used to be such a huge divide between game fans. You'd play whatever someone brought to the table. Now there is maybe split-second before lines are drawn and people start bitching ands screaming about whose game is better than anothers. I've seen this happen more than once in a LGS and almost constantly online. Most prospective gamers to be shy away from this sort of nonsense, if not outright run! Bad enviorment. Not much cultivation going on here.
2)Some gamers smell. No way around it. The number 1 enviornmental hazard of gaming is icky gamers. It never hurts to tell someone to wash up. Or at least, it usually hurts worse to stay near them if you don't. Its a problem that has always existed and still exist. Sure the hobby appeals to a lot of socially challenged people. If your not one, help out those who are. It might be a little uncomfortable at first, but it usually brings dividends in the er, end.
3)A little promotion never hurt anyone. Although I think most gamer people will either get there through friends and family, or that they will gravitate naturally to the hobby....Its our demeanor and the enviornment that will determine if they turn around and walk away. Don't hesitate to ask them to game if they look interested. If your open-minded about the newbie, the newbie will likely be the same in return. Be sure to pick your spots, though. Just don't bum-rush them with a nervous, jerky, unsure "Hey...do you want game with me" in the mens room.

Anyway, i am really starting to ramble now, so i am gonna quit. I'm not even sure if i stayed on topic at this point. I'm out!

 

[William Ronald]

Originally posted by PJ Mason:
There are little things the "Industry" can do to help things along, though. Things like demos and fan clubs. A few of the bigger companies do this, but many of them are just lip service and don't have aggressive polices. This problem is grounded in a bigger problem, as i see it (see bottom of post).

I would tend to agree with your statement. Furthermore, I think gamers and game stores can do more to promote gaming. I might be spoiled, but I frequent two Chicago area stores where the owners are gamers, and try to provide a friendly environment for all types of gaming. (Most of the gamers I know are very good on hygiene issues. I think only a small minority perpetuate the stereotype of gamers with poor hygiene.)

Perhaps gamers have become a bit too clannish, but I think this problem can be addressed on an individual level and a much larger level.

Dwarven Godfather: Interesting story about SAGA. Something like that would be good to see in many cities.

 

[William Ronald]

Other areas where combined efforts might be useful are in countering negative stereotypes about the hobby and in more events like EN World Game Days. For those who have never attended one, I would urge you to do so. They are a great way to meet your fellow gamers as well as to try new games. Any other thoughts?

 

[GravyFingerz]

Other areas where combined efforts might be useful are in countering negative stereotypes about the hobby and in more events like EN World Game Days. For those who have never attended one, I would urge you to do so. They are a great way to meet your fellow gamers as well as to try new games. Any other thoughts?

I've always wanted to go to an EN World Game Day ... unfortunetly, when GenCon time comes around, I'm usually either unemployed or can't afford the funds to attend. Sigh.

I do agree with the trend in a FLGS. Here in Fresno, we have two. One is run by a kind elderly lady who started of selling puzzles and board games, but carries all kinds of RPG books now, and some downright old ones. I doubt she plays; she seems to have a knowledge of the industry about average compared to any other owner. Most people find don't seem to have a positive reaction to her.

The second one recently remoddled and changed their name. The owners are very friendly, and are gamers. They deal mostly in comics and card games, but have a decent stock of RPGs. They used to have a big space devoted to war gaming and magic the gathering, but when they sold part of their space to a phone store (and made a pretty penny as the owner told me), they have less space to do so.

Maybe I'm rambling. When I lived in washington, I visited two gaming stores: Merlyns and Getaway Games. I don't like Merlyn's all that much, mostly because one of the employees wasnt very polite. They have a huge space and lots of merchandise, but I look at the people who run the store before the books.

Though at Getaway Games, the guy there named Steve, is a gamer, very VERY friendly guy, nice big space for gaming and wargaming; it was, imo, the perfect gaming store. A place where you can go to get some snacks and drinks, buy a book, chat with the owner about the latest D&D minis, and game. We need more places like that.

Besides, Steve knew about Malls & Morons, and anyone who knows of my work and likes it is good in my book

My point is, I think the biggest gateway to new gamers, besides existing gamers, is a friendly local environment in the gaming store. If more owners cared, went out of their way to make gamers feel comfortable and relaxed, I think there would be more gamers. All it takes is one jerk to turn someone off to gaming.

 

[Funksaw]

You could always branch out Enworld to other gaming systems. That would be good for many reasons.

 

[johnsemlak]

I, Gamer:
The average gamer (this means me too) doesn't provide a great enviornment for new gamers. This diatribe is really only relevant to the fringe gamer introduction. Most players seemed to be introduced to gamer from family and friends. I think that method is still the dominant one today. The other methods seem to be more
1) We are too damn clannish. Its a little hard to tell, but i think its much worse now than it ever was. At least the gamers in my area cocoon in their homes and don't come until dark and keep to the shadows. Its bad enough that we are afraid of our own shadow, but now we keep pigeon-holing each other by "favorite" gaming systems. There didn't used to be such a huge divide between game fans. You'd play whatever someone brought to the table. Now there is maybe split-second before lines are drawn and people start bitching ands screaming about whose game is better than anothers. I've seen this happen more than once in a LGS and almost constantly online. Most prospective gamers to be shy away from this sort of nonsense, if not outright run! Bad enviorment. Not much cultivation going on here.

I agree with this whole-heartedly. Gamers can often be incredibly strong-minded when it comes to what games, editions, and gaming styles they prefer. It often becomes quite destructive to gaming groups.

That said, I think it's very difficult for an individual to be open-minded to all the different games, gaming styles, etc. out there. There are simply to many of them going on. I try to be open-minded, but there are simply some types of games I have little interest in even trying. Also, I simply have limits on my time.

 

[Whisper72]

Hmm... I disagree that all the 'power' lies with the gamers themselves. Sure, ultimately, the 'voting dollar' of the gaming public decides how and where the gaming industry will grow, but companies can have a large impact by making stuff that appeals to new / larger audiences. I will focus on DnD, as that is my main interest and field of experience.

WOTC has done so with the release of DnD3.x. Some people (myself included) sometimes complain about it having a more 'CRPG' like feel, but this is actually a good marketing ploy to attract a new generation of players whose first exposure to 'role'playing is from CRPG's. The launch of Eberron, with a new look/feel gameworld is similarly an attempt to unlock a different kind of audience in addition to the FR people.

There are several things I do not understand though:

- why is there no good introductory / basic version of DnD? The set of 3 core rulebooks is larger than the old Gutenberg Bible, and at times more difficult to understand, whether you know German or not, especially for not-yet gamers.
A version with only the four basic classes, limits on spells/powers available, maybe only for the first 10-12 levels or so etc. to get ppl going. Just a bit more then the very limited introductory box which only covers levels 1 and 2.

- if one of the problems of the industry is that once you have the game-books, you do not need to buy new ones, why is there not more focus on modules, which are essentially the 'one shot' products that should generate cash?

- the whole distribution thing sucks IMHO. Especially overseas, there IS no FLGS, and in any case, most FLGS's that exist are hardly the best places to attract new players to the game, as the air / look / feel of those places are often intimidating to anyone not already in some sort of game related hobby in the first place. There should be more effort put in the availability of adequate (in terms of range of items / choice) gaming material in 'regular' game and book stores.

- as for societies not being necessary, since the individual gaming companies usually do not have the money available for real advertising (i.e. national coverage TV spots, ads in non-gaming magazines to attract new audiences etc.), this could be the tast of an organization transcending individual companies. If all d20/DnD related companies got together and spent some cash to do a joint ad campaign, maybe they could summon up some real impact.

Just some thoughts...

 

[Acid_crash]

You could always branch out Enworld to other gaming systems. That would be good for many reasons.

This would be a great idea. If ENWorld would put up more support for non d20 games and people on it would be more open to talking about other games besides ignoring threads when they are mentioned, then I would appreciate ENWorld even more. Plus, it would stop me from going to rpg.net for my other gaming conversations.