Improving the gaming industry

[Arnwyn]

Is SKR not an experienced FR designer?

Certainly not. Strange that one would think he is. He didn't write his first FR product until the very end of 2e/beginning of 3e with a contribution in Cloak & Dagger, and then a sub-par FR adventure before he was credited with the FRCS. Cloak & Dagger and the FRCS does not an experienced FR designer make.

I'm still failing to see the logic of how "focusing entirely on existing players, particularly the older ones" somehow equates to "growing the hobby".

Sorry - I ignored your "exclusive" comment in your previous post, as no one in this entire thread even implied such a thing, and it was an obvious inappropriate strawman. (Thus, I am ignoring your "focus entirely" strawman as well.)

My point was that if you can adequately cater to those who are experienced with the campaign setting while still making it accessible to newcomers - it's not mutually exclusive, I don't think. "Growing the hobby" probably does not include losing the veterans.

You want WotC to become the next Chaosium, i.e., reprinting the same material over and over again until the cows come home?

Actually, what you've just described is catering to the noobs - constantly reprinting the same thing so that new players don't "miss out" on previous material. This is a FR hallmark, actually.

 

[Incenjucar]

Some people on a message board griped about a product and that's supposed to dictate WotC marketing strategy? It's evidence that everyone who buys the PlHB hates Planescape?

Did I say -everyone-? I didn't even say many. Just that they do exist. Don't put words in my mouth.

I'd love to see the original quote in context.

And wouldn't you know it, the WotC boards search is dead right now?

I'm still not seeing how WotC is alienating anybody by consistently producing high-quality books and even going out of their way to offer some support or license older settings that aren't profitable. Is everybody forgetting the TSR 2e years when the AD&D shelves were flooded with total crap? Jeebus.

High quality is subjective. The books in a physical sense, as in binding and paper, are fine. The content spans the numminess of SK to the typo explosion of CD.

So, the fact that you have issues with WotC's handling of FR means you're never going to introduce people to the hobby in general, ever.

No. The fact that D&D isn't holding my interest like it used to is leading me to have no reason to try and drag people in to it. Would you try to convert customers to New Coke if you were beginning to prefer the taste of Pepsi or RC Cola, just because you loved Coca-Cola Classic?

Great. Have you made use of all the 2e PS material already? Are you finding it unusuable with 3e? Are you dissatisfied with the planar material for 3e? Are you not interested in Beyond Countless Doorways?

I'm getting BCD, and I'm expecting it to give me a good solid three month creativity high like the old PS books did, and may boost my interest in D&D like mad. But WotC isn't doing so nearly as much as I feel it should or could. I still use 2e planar material because WotC has pretty much failed to bring out anything comparable since MotP which, despite the whole ants in gears thing, was pretty nice. SK has also brought my interest in D&D up to a new high after several months of 'eh', but a Planescape-friendly book would have done so much more heavily. In fact, 90% of my posts here coincide with SK talk (prior, I had a single digit post count, as I recall).

No, I'm pointing out that the deal you're trying to broker is basically: "In exchange for Cartoon Network spending millions to develop a TV show and a toy line, WotC will produce a d20 sourcebook for it without paying CN any license fee that will probably do virtually nothing for the network whasoever." There's nothing in this deal for CN. And, yes, Power Puff Girl d20 Sourcebooks are signficantly less brand-useful than stickers. RPG licenses generally don't make the licensor any money or add brand recognition. Licenses are only attractive to the licensees; thet's why they PAY MONEY for the license, i.e., "We could sell a lot more RPGs if they had a big Star Wars logo on them."

*sighs* Look, specifics were a mistake to bring up. My point is that WotC needs to consider marketing tactics that expand the name OUTSIDE of the present circles. Advertising D&D on Enworld or the WotC boards is outright pointless -- if they're there, they're already interested. D&D needs to get -out there-, hopefully in a manner more dignified than that horrid D&D movie.

But worthless licenses don't sell.

Every license is worthless until someone tests it out. Do you really think that Aqua Teen Hunger Force was worth putting in movie theatre advertisements the very instant it was devised?

The owner of a property like Midnight needs to demonstrate that the license is worth paying for.

Woah. Who said 'pay for'? I'm talking about something along the lines of the OGL. Midnight wouldn't be trying to make money off of TV, they would be trying to get free advertising. Now, it would make sense to get a percentage of profits after a certain point, but the main point is to sell the game.

Seeing as most 3rd-party settings count their fans in the thousands, I don't see how any company is going to be jumping at the bit to license them. E.g., a keychain with a nazgul-looking baddie and the Midnight logo isn't going to sell any better than if it just had the baddie. There's no incentive.

If Midnight had some really cool creatures that it could put on keychains, and had the name on it, people might buy it for the monster, and, with the infinite ease of the 'net, investigate the name. You're getting the order wrong.

Aside: I have no farking clue what "Home Movies" is, so maybe this sort of marginal branding thing you're talking about isn't as successful as you think. These ideas just strike me as myopic.


Your small town sells a few hundred bottles of novelty wine and you want WotC to tarnish the D&D brand by putting it on beer? I dunno.

The point is, we'll never know what can get interest until someone tries to GET interest.

These CRPGs get the brand recognized in a very big way, and they get it recognized by a demographic that has a lot of existing and potential crossover with the RPG crowd. While it should not be the only way WotC promotes the brand, it is a very, very, very, good way.

Yes, the CRPGs do. Hopefully some of the stronger 3rd party groups are sending the occassional letter to video game companies trying to see if they want to put one out, maybe with the idea of doing what Everquest did.

But yeah, booze is probably a really bad idea, I'll admit to that -- that would just scare parents. Soda's an option though. Maybe Regdar wants to do the dew, eh? Heck, they have those Quiznos commercials with those bloody mishapen singing hamsters..

 

[William Ronald]

Originally posted by buzz

These CRPGs get the brand recognized in a very big way, and they get it recognized by a demographic that has a lot of existing and potential crossover with the RPG crowd. While it should not be the only way WotC promotes the brand, it is a very, very, very, good way.

Yes, the CRPGs do. Hopefully some of the stronger 3rd party groups are sending the occassional letter to video game companies trying to see if they want to put one out, maybe with the idea of doing what Everquest did.

But yeah, booze is probably a really bad idea, I'll admit to that -- that would just scare parents. Soda's an option though. Maybe Regdar wants to do the dew, eh? Heck, they have those Quiznos commercials with those bloody mishapen singing hamsters..

More cross-marketing would be a good idea. However, I do not believe that the gaming hobby and its various companies need to focus either on gaining new gamers or serving existing customers. Both are worthy goals.

One idea, in addition to products like the Basic Set, might be short and quick introductions to a campaign. Maybe an inexpensive adventure set in Eberron or the Forgotten Realms might be a good idea. (Perhaps with enough information to allow someone to run a mini-campaign.)

I DO agree that we need to present a decent image in public, and maybe advertise events a bit more. For example, as Incenjucar suggested an outdoor game might work well. (I realize you said convention, but the hazards of bad weather might prove disastrous.) Possibly a gaming group like the RPGA or the old SAGA organization in St. Louis might be able to help with such an event. (I think many gamers would be interested in events where they could have some fun and maybe bring some new people into the hobby.)

Also, some advertising might be a good idea. Heck, I remember some of TSR's old ads. They advertised for D&D and Star Frontiers in the 1980s. Advertising on cable might be a good idea. (The Quiznos hamsters might have been appropriate for a Spelljammer ad. )

However, I doubt that WotC will do much with its previous campaign settings. In the case of Greyhawk, is there a version that everyone would agree to and who would write it. The Greyhawk fan base is very fragmented and I don't know if it is even possible to produce a Greyhawk product that the majority of its fans would accept as canon.

 

[Incenjucar]

True enough, William.

I've been thinking that WotC needs to put out something like it does with its introductory packs for card games -- a little scenario on a CD, and another one for two people, that has you play a session half-way through by their guiding hand, and then lets you finish it on your own. Indeed, probably the roughest thing about getting D&D out there is that it's set up for a GROUP, rather than a pair. The fewer people needed for something, the easier it is to set up. Groups come -later-, when likeminds meet up and share.

And yeah, I didn't really mean a full blown product-selling style convention, more something done in a very stable-weather area (my local area is actually perfect for it -- we have Renfaires out here too), with a dozen or so different gaming groups, and maybe a vendor or two, and some coordinators (throw in some frisbee-playing and such with free frisbees with logos for WotC and 3rd party settings to show that gamers can still be active) with D&D-related activities that will appeal to passersby. Throw in a few LARPing demonstrations to catch eyes, etc etc etc. Maybe hand out a few prizes, etc. If nothing else, it would be a blast.

And heck, if WotC started doing things like this: http://p201.ezboard.com/fantarcticp...essageRange?start=1&stop=20&topicID=809.topic

It couldn't hurt much, eh?

 

[William Ronald]

Good ideas, Incenjucar!!! You could probably have an outdoor event in places like Chicago or New York, but you would have to schedule it carefully.

Introductory products are important. I think that they can help give people an introuduction to what gaming is about, without weighing them down with too many options.

As for people promoting the hobby, maybe something like the RPGA would work but I don't think there should be ties to only one company. White Wolf gamers, D20 players, and other RPG players may have more in common than some would like to admit.

You might want to check out the D&D on NPR about the National Public Radio's story on Dungeons and Dragons. Gotham GM was interviewed for the piece.