D&D 5E (2014) Improvised actions in combat

[Garthanos]

They may technically be unrealistic... but few of us I think game for realism. I want flamboyant "seeming" chance taking that a hero can force to work.

 

[Erechel]

it depends on the nature and intent of improvised actions...

Case 1 - seen often by "those players" - you describe something not explicitly covered in the rule and want it ruled to be massively more than any normal acton would be. "sand in eyes" = auto-blind. "drop rock from above - crush skull. practically any nuance - called shot to the auto-win.

Those dont get much out of me. Especially since most of the time they do not actually call in any character traits - the goal is to get outside of them or around them.

i interpret them using the same basic principles of resolution we normally have.
if armor matters its a to-hit. if brief touch matters its save. if long touch matters its skill checks. etc etc.

Sand in eyes = HELP action (action, not just one of your extra attacks.)

Sand in the eyes actually could be a bonus action, with an easy saving throw (DC 10) such as the net. Attempting more than once such a trick could grant advantage to the save. After all, it just adds the blinded condition for one round.

What you are describing is an abuse more than an improvisation. Throw big rocks from high ground typically would be ruled by me as an attack with damage+an effect (Strength save to avoid being knocked prone). Needing special packs of rules (EG: spells) to inflict conditions seems a little unfair to me. I can fright someone through intimidation. Why my cold blooded fighter can't?

Of course, you have to be fair. You don't need to be better at that than someone who specializes in that. And you need to have a chance to fail, or the target to avoid the tactic. That's what a saving throw is for.
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Case-2 You describe extra flourish and utilization of scenery and tactical elements that were added to the scene by me, the npcs or by the PCs - go for it. These are the types of things that can gain advantage for you. I myself **love** to insert scenery that you can try and use - and so can "them".

Fight near the big chair... can i spend half my move and do acrobatics to use the chair as a launching point to flip around and strike him from..." "absolutely! make a check... also of course with the right roll they could possibly turn the cover and acrobatics into an effective "cannot OA me."

But the key is, apply the same resolution process for both and it all works out.

Extra flourish isn't how I would call it. You are simply doing what people is doing from the beginning of time: taking account of the environment. Sometimes, the environment is disadvantageous. Other times, it provides an edge. If I must fight someone, I would try to bash his head against a surface, or kick the kneecaps, and try to use and abuse any trick I have.

 

[5ekyu]

Sand in the eyes actually could be a bonus action, with an easy saving throw (DC 10) such as the net. Attempting more than once such a trick could grant advantage to the save. After all, it just adds the blinded condition for one round.

What you are describing is an abuse more than an improvisation. Throw big rocks from high ground typically would be ruled by me as an attack with damage+an effect (Strength save to avoid being knocked prone). Needing special packs of rules (EG: spells) to inflict conditions seems a little unfair to me. I can fright someone through intimidation. Why my cold blooded fighter can't?

Of course, you have to be fair. You don't need to be better at that than someone who specializes in that. And you need to have a chance to fail, or the target to avoid the tactic. That's what a saving throw is for.
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Extra flourish isn't how I would call it. You are simply doing what people is doing from the beginning of time: taking account of the environment. Sometimes, the environment is disadvantageous. Other times, it provides an edge. If I must fight someone, I would try to bash his head against a surface, or kick the kneecaps, and try to use and abuse any trick I have.

"Extra flourish isn't how I would call it."

Yay, great fantastic... Thats whay dictionaries are for... Finding other words to describe all that jazz after the "and".

As for frighten via intimidate, you can frighten someone thru intimidation but not necessarily Frighten then. The conditions are prepackaged sets of calculable programmed effects.

Intimidation is not, to me, that precise.

Maybe the target runs, maybe they move to get a weapon, even if that is closer. Maybe they move to attack you to keep you away from their babies. Maybe you become the focus of their fire. Maybe they close 15' to cut the rope you are climbing across on.

Some of those things are strictly illegal if you are allowed to inflict a pre-packaged condition that strictly forbids them closing with you even if its the only way to eliminate you as a threat.

Thats the difference between a magical compulsory control and an emotional reaction to an intimidating or even down right scary person.

Skills generalky, create the wide world of expected unpredictables... While magic typically is handled differently. There are some overlaps... Being knocked prone still produces the same condition - whether ots by a magic push or a shove. But then if the magic persists and holds you down, thing get different.

But, as always, a gm in their game can rule it how they want.

If in your games, beaches enable bonus action blind attacks or mountain crushing flourishes or whatever, thats between you and your players.

Be At Peace, always.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Oddly enough, I'm reminded of a Xena: Warrior Princess scene.

In it, Xena is preparing to fight a giant by making a kite with a key on it to attract a lighting strike.
Gabriel walks up to her and ask why Xena just doesn't hit the giant in the head with a sling shot like in David and Goliath.
Xena responds by saying she didn't want to repeat a method and wanted to express her creativity in battle by coming up and using a new unique method.

Is Xena's attitude what you're looking for?

 

[5ekyu]

Oddly enough, I'm reminded of a Xena: Warrior Princess scene.

In it, Xena is preparing to fight a giant by making a kite with a key on it to attract a lighting strike.
Gabriel walks up to her and ask why Xena just doesn't hit the giant in the head with a sling shot like in David and Goliath.
Xena responds by saying she didn't want to repeat a method and wanted to express her creativity in battle by coming up and using a new unique method.

Is Xena's attitude what you're looking for?

Which was why we only ever saw her use her frisbee of doom once even tho its a cool fx.

 

[Satyrn]

Is Xena's attitude what you're looking for?

Yes. A thousand times Yes!

 

[Erechel]

"Extra flourish isn't how I would call it."

Yay, great fantastic... Thats whay dictionaries are for... Finding other words to describe all that jazz after the "and".

As for frighten via intimidate, you can frighten someone thru intimidation but not necessarily Frighten then. The conditions are prepackaged sets of calculable programmed effects.

Intimidation is not, to me, that precise.

Maybe the target runs, maybe they move to get a weapon, even if that is closer. Maybe they move to attack you to keep you away from their babies. Maybe you become the focus of their fire. Maybe they close 15' to cut the rope you are climbing across on.

Some of those things are strictly illegal if you are allowed to inflict a pre-packaged condition that strictly forbids them closing with you even if its the only way to eliminate you as a threat.

Thats the difference between a magical compulsory control and an emotional reaction to an intimidating or even down right scary person.

Skills generalky, create the wide world of expected unpredictables... While magic typically is handled differently. There are some overlaps... Being knocked prone still produces the same condition - whether ots by a magic push or a shove. But then if the magic persists and holds you down, thing get different.

But, as always, a gm in their game can rule it how they want.

If in your games, beaches enable bonus action blind attacks or mountain crushing flourishes or whatever, thats between you and your players.

Be At Peace, always.

The way I see it, it is a big and fundamental approach to gaming. THE big turnover for me in 3.X / 4thE era was the "Hard Rules" approach to gaming: you couldn't attempt anything if you don't have a specific rule that grants you such thing. That is, if you want to throw sand in the eyes of an enemy, you need a feature that grants you such attack as an encounter power, or is nearly useless/ you just can't. It is a very video-gamey approach (no judgement involved, i LIKE videogames), in the way that you need a specific piece of code to attempt something. I'm more a "Soft Rules" player: specific powers do a thing better than average, but you can still do them as its most basic level, with skill checks. That is how it worked (somewhat) in AD&D, and later in the OSR movement: you can always try something, and it is up to the

5th Edition takes this approach to its heart; even the stunned condition is depicted as an ogre hit by what appears to be a halfling with a hammer. Most spells or special abilities grant bonuses in addition to the "average" result, take for example the Battlemaster maneuvers: they are common attacks with increased damage (superiority dice) and an effect, such as Frighten, knock an enemy or Disarm it. The same happens with the Open Handed monk.

There are some of these conditions with their own rules (like Disarm, in the DMG), but they are left to the DM to asign the actions and effects. The PHB advises to use skills creatively. If the game should need a rule for every minor interaction, the game will suffer of an extreme rules' bloat. That's why I, as a DM, take the approach of cost-opportunity for improvisations, applying common sense wherever it needs to have a limit. Even the game says so in the PHB. 5th Ed is a fantastic system, because it can resolve many things without too much effort, always following the guidelines, and not a collection of seemingly unrelated rules (a la AD&D, which was my game of preference before 5th ED, but it was clunky). You always have the Skill Check, Attack and Saving Throw mechanics to resolve things. Specific beats general, and it is often better than a simple skill check (EG, the Shield Master feat allows to perform a shove as a bonus action, instead of spending an attack).