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D&D 5E In fifth-edition D&D, what is gold for?

Uller

Adventurer
None of that quite tracks.
It all tracks unless you are trying to support an arbitrary rule that is outside the logic of the game world. If magic items are extremely rare like one of a kind historical artifacts and religious relics in our world (like the Hope Diamond, the Shroud of Turin or the Holy Lance) then it is fair to say that there is no market and they can only be obtained through adventuring and role playing.

But if 2nd or 3rd level PCs can stumble on a +1 longsword in a forgotten chest in the basement of an abandoned mansion and obtain a magic staff by defeating a minor NPC (like in LMoP) then either the DM has to convince them that they are ridiculously lucky or magic items are common enough that there must be a market of some sort (not a magic item shop...a network of producers/acquirers, buyers and sellers).

To say it doesn't track is to start with a conclusion and work backwards in a way breaks the logic of the game world.

The DMG acknowledges this. Pages 135 and 136 discuss the possibility of buying, selling and crafting magic items. But downtime activities for only two of these are provided. Why not provide the third and then leave it up to the DM which downtime activities are available to the PCs based on their level, the level of magic in the world and the time and resources the PCs have available?

No...it's not that hard to come up with your own. I use a combination of the magic item creation rules, selling rules and this pdf. But it seems like an oversight to me. It seems kind of silly to me that people dismiss those who raise the issue as if they are playing the game wrong (not saying you are...but others have).

I liken it to some of the verbiage in earlier editions of the game that claimed the D&D game world is a "human world" where elves, dwarves, halflings, etc are supposed to be very rare and most humans have never seen a "demihuman" but then published adventures, pregen characters and various random generation tables throughout the rules were written with an obviously different set of assumptions. Just saying it is so doesn't make it so if the supporting crunch doesn't reflect it. The DMG treasure tables and all the published adventures do not reflect the idea that magic is so rare and wonderful that an informal market wouldn't exist.
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
But if 2nd or 3rd level PCs can stumble on a +1 longsword in a forgotten chest in the basement of an abandoned mansion and obtain a magic staff by defeating a minor NPC (like in LMoP) then either the DM has to convince them that they are ridiculously lucky or magic items are common enough that there must be a market of some sort (not a magic item shop...a network of producers/acquirers, buyers and sellers).
That's an adventure, not the rules, but OK.

I think "PCs are ridiculously lucky" isn't much of a stretch. They're expected to routinely survive 6-8 fights a day with other humanoids armed with deadly weapons and/or giant monsters and/or who-knows-what improbable dangers. Less than ridiculous luck would run out pretty quick in the pursuit of that lifestyle.
 

AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
If magic items are extremely rare like one of a kind historical artifacts and religious relics in our world (like the Hope Diamond, the Shroud of Turin or the Holy Lance) then it is fair to say that there is no market and they can only be obtained through adventuring and role playing.
I must have misunderstood your earlier post - because I thought you said in it that this set up you describe in this quote was impossible, and I was saying "None of that quite tracks" because this quoted arrangement is absolutely possible.

But if 2nd or 3rd level PCs can stumble on a +1 longsword in a forgotten chest in the basement of an abandoned mansion and obtain a magic staff by defeating a minor NPC (like in LMoP) then either the DM has to convince them that they are ridiculously lucky or magic items are common enough that there must be a market of some sort (not a magic item shop...a network of producers/acquirers, buyers and sellers).
That is not exactly the case. A world in which adventurers are exceedingly rare, and magic items even rarer still, but that even adventurers early in their careers might come across multiple is entirely plausible. Rare to the world need not mean rare to experts in a particular field.

To say it doesn't track is to start with a conclusion and work backwards in a way breaks the logic of the game world.
Or to understand that the logic of the game world is the logic of any fiction - it can be crafted such to be as it needs to be, whether starting with how you want the world to be or with the reasons why it is the way it is.

The DMG acknowledges this. Pages 135 and 136 discuss the possibility of buying, selling and crafting magic items. But downtime activities for only two of these are provided. Why not provide the third and then leave it up to the DM which downtime activities are available to the PCs based on their level, the level of magic in the world and the time and resources the PCs have available?
...because the designers, and myself at the moment, couldn't think of a downtime activity for buying a magical item that needed more word count than the suggested price ranges given to the DM?

I mean, how do you propose that we make shopping engaging or interesting, or add some random quality to it, and why do you feel that arrangement is worth replacing the current arrangement of the player saying "I go around the town and see if I can find X magic item for sale." and the DM saying whether they find it and what price is being asked if they do?

The DMG treasure tables and all the published adventures do not reflect the idea that magic is so rare and wonderful that an informal market wouldn't exist.
And yet, I've used those tables and run those adventures in settings where there absolutely isn't a market, informal or otherwise, for magical items with no alterations and without anyone at the table stumbling over the idea - because rare to the world at large doesn't have to mean rare to adventurers.
 

If you mean that as an analogy to rules allowing downtime to be spent making items (that might impact BA by +1 to +3), then, hmm...

... probably not*, but then I'm not the one wanting more detailed magic-item creation rules, either... heck, I tend not to place magic items when running 5e, at all, unless it's an AL event.

But, aside from my being the wrong DM to use that analogy on, it also seems like it's off on another level. You /have/ been able to make magic items in several past editions of D&D, and in two of them at least, do so using fairly concrete rules. In one of those, there's even an implied, if not terribly rational, 'economy' of item-creation (essentially a mill that burns exp to make money).
I'm not aware of any past edition where you could gain bonuses out of the blue for downtime training. Train for levels once you had the exp, yes...

* OTOH, using a downtime 'training montage,' to gain a more specific bonus in a re-match against a Big Bad that previously defeated you; or something like Grandmaster Training (maybe adding a unique maneuver or something, if you have the CS die to ever use it)? That could have some potential.
The montage is why it's a fun example. It makes sense in that you can imagine the players going all Rocky or Son Goku and training to get more powerful. It's a cool idea with a neat visual.
But, from a game design perspective, you're trading a replenishable unlimited resource (time) for increased power. The cost is low but the gain is high

In theory this is very different from money... except money isn't that hard to come by in 5e. Because the rules don't assume it can be traded for a power increase, they don't limit or restrict its gain. And you often have more spare cash than time in a campaign.
Spare cash was a minor problem in 3e: any increase in money could throw off wealth-by-level. Lengthy downtime with a high profession skill and such. (It was especially broken in organised play.)


While I sympathise with the desire to have a rules option that complements your playstyle, 5e just isn't set-up for regular creation of uncommon rarity and higher. Not without either reworking every simple magic item or adjusting all the monster math. It also means low level monsters stop being a threat at higher levels, or have to somehow gain pluses just to challenge the players, so you need variant goblins and gnolls every few levels.

The catch of the 3e magic item economy was it was design to increase player choices, by allowing them to build their characters around magic items. However, the Big Six items were quickly notices, and people started only building around those. So many magic items were ignored because they just were not as mechanically strong as the stat boosting items.


Now, looking at the problem from another angle, the problem seems to be that people want to customise their gear.
This, by itself, isn't a problem. But getting hung up on the magic item selling/ crafting rules is a distraction. Because crafting magic items is only half the problem. The other half is the inability to make +1 flaming ghost touch axiomatic longswords. The ability to tweak and adjust the dials of the gear.
Which IS a rule or option that could be added. A Diablo style loot system where you have a bunch of modifiers, bonuses, and powers you can hang off a magic item. Where you can customise and slot in options to a weapon or signature item. It wouldn't be too hard to balance/limit it through another currency, such as residuum or astral diamonds.
But this is a little more like Weapons of Legacy. The benefit of such a system being the bonuses could be more situational, have an action cost (giving more choices in combat), and not increase bonuses so the math is not affected.


As long as there is a limit to how much you can improve by that way (just like magic items) and require some form of substantial campaign cost (like magic items), I would.
What is the "substantial campaign cost" of magic items?

(And not every magic item requires attunement. If freely allowed to craft, items lacking attunement would be regular creations.)

Number bonuses are not quite the problem, since they are easy to counter them (raising monsters stats when it fits).
Then what's the point of the bonus? The net result isn't a bonus, but a penalty to everyone who didn't take the bonus?
 

Uller

Adventurer
That's an adventure, not the rules, but OK.

I think "PCs are ridiculously lucky" isn't much of a stretch. They're expected to routinely survive 6-8 fights a day with other humanoids armed with deadly weapons and/or giant monsters and/or who-knows-what improbable dangers. Less than ridiculous luck would run out pretty quick in the pursuit of that lifestyle.

No. It's not the rules. But it is the adventure that is intended to introduce new players to the game.

Let's accept that the PCs are ridiculously lucky is a valid explanation (to me, that explanation doesn't hold water as the PCs continue to find magic items in abandoned basements and on the corpses of defeated NPCs but to each his own). Is it an invalid explanation that the PCs are not all that out of the ordinary?

I'm not expecting WotC to do anything about this. Certainly not arguing they should go back and rewrite the DMG. But some folks are acting like if they put some support for those that want it in a UA or Dragon+ article or in some subsequent supplement it would be some great travesty that will break their game world. I don't get it.

I don't think it would have been very hard to write the Selling Magic Items downtime activity as Buying/Selling Magic Items and write the two tables with an extra column. There...problem solved.
 

Ahrimon

Bourbon and Dice
Number bonuses are not quite the problem, since they are easy to counter them (raising monsters stats when it fits).

Then what's the point of the bonus? The net result isn't a bonus, but a penalty to everyone who didn't take the bonus?

And this is why the magic item system failed from 3e through 4e IMO. It became a system where you had to improves specific things or else you couldn't keep up. I much prefer the 5e and the AD&D systems where magic items aren't a required part of the system. I like being able to have my character pick up an underwater helm or boots of the winterlands without having the system leave my character behind or listening to some other players berating me for putting their characters in jeopardy for not keeping up.
 

Igwilly

First Post
Cost: money, time, special ingredients, character-building investment, etc. These things don’t come for free, you know.
Purpose: to face bigger, stronger, more powerful opponents, of course! Hehehehehehe :D *insert Goku's laugh here*
No, really, I'm serious.
P.S.: I don't know how to do that spoiler window thing. Sorry.
P.S.2: *Fixed*
 
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Ilbranteloth

Explorer
The bit I highlighted. What does that even mean?

An over-supply of gold and under-supply of stuff to spend it on isn't a 'problem' caused by the rules, it is perhaps one engendered by the narrow modus operandi of APs.

The two should not be conflated and then labelled a game rules 'problem'. It is a limitation of this mode of play, which is practiced by the minority and I would contend is in no way seen as the 'official' way to run D&D 5th Edition - it is merely the official way to run APs.

Mixing this up creates a problem out of nothing.

I disagree. And this ties into the "official" rules thing as well. I think that a large number of players play the APs and that the "default" or "official" way to play the game is to pick up an AP, create a party of characters, and play the AP. Once that's done, pick up another AP, create a new batch of characters, and play that one. This is further reinforced by the nature of the AL, with drop-ins for new "campaigns" you'll create a new character, and when you reach a certain point, or come to the next season's adventurers when you need a 1st level character again.

Organized and published play, when the publications are designed to cover the "life" of a character (from 1st to 15th level), are a very different paradigm than a home group that plays with the same characters for years, sometimes adding new ones (when another dies, or they are interested in playing a new character for a while, etc.).

Moreso, there is nothing inherent within the AP or AL design that moves players to the (old school?) approach to home campaign play. That occurs when players in the public adventures are offered an opportunity to join an established campaign. Otherwise a group of players from the public campaign may want to play more, they get together outside of the weekly session, and continue what they know, which is the AP approach.

So I definitely don't think it's a minority (it certainly isn't around here), and it's also a growing segment of the D&D gamer, precisely because of the success of D&D and it's growth.

There's nothing wrong with it, but it is quite a different style of playing. I find far more references (and questions) about it in locations other than Enworld which seems to have participation by a much higher level of "RPG Geek" than many of the other places I visit that have a lot more questions from newbies. Many of them, of course, read about how folks like us play they game, but have some difficulty switching to it, largely (it seems) because it really requires a group of like-minded players. A casual group of friends will have a wide mix of play styles, not all that are entirely compatible, and if somebody isn't interested in any more than just "playing the game as written" in the style of the APs, then it's tough to change that.

I see this all the time at my local gaming stores (which seem to be popping up all over the place in the last few years after decades of virtually none).

The APs and AL approach makes perfect sense in today's market, and for new players to be able to pick up a PHB (and/or Basic and the Starter Set) and an AP is really all you need. The DMG has lots of good info, and the MM expands your choices, but each AP has all of the rules you need if you have the PHB/Basic.

It has changed the expectation dramatically when meeting new players. At least for me. It's fun to run a public campaign for me, but I do often have to shift my DM approach significantly. I may bring a few of my home rules, but in most cases I find that I have to stick with RAW for 90% (which is often easier anyway since I don't have to teach them anything new, although I do provide a booklet of rules clarifications, home rules, and lore for each player).

Presentation makes a different, but it's also the perception of that presentation that matters. And I have seen a decided shift in the play-style of players, particularly new ones, and it follows what the general perception is of "how the game should be played" based on the presentation of the rules.

In another thread I had noted that I feel that 4e was rules heavy, and also exclusive, meaning if a rule wasn't in the book, you couldn't do it. [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] reminded me that the DMG has a specific section contradicting this. I had forgotten about it, primarily because pretty much everybody I've met who started with 4e has this very impression - if it's not in the rules, you can't do it. And most of the players I meet now that started with 4e carry that over to 5e with them. So it may not have been the intent, but it was certainly viewed as the rule around here (and also as the "official" or "right" way to play the game).

When I DM a public group, my hope is always to find more people that I can relate to more directly, and might join the home campaign, but also to help those that have other play styles to form their own groups as well, and do the same thing. Sure, playing D&D is fun and the purpose that brings us together at the store, but I think that we can get much more out of it if somebody wants to. And the number one thing is to foster a greater love for the game, and to help them find people so they can play it more than just once a week (or less) at the store.

I should also point out that there are still some public Pathfinder games in a few of the stores around here. They are much smaller, because many of the players have jumped back into D&D, but what is really evident is the play-style. It's much more of the RP-heavy, more home rules, more of the type that likes to really get into how the rules work, what they mean, etc. Each group is unique and there are different play styles, but what I see when new players sit in, or watch, or ask questions, is that it is seen as much more complicated, almost above their head.

All of the 4e games in the area stores have folded, so I can't really compare that, and I'm not aware of any non-Pathfinder 3e, or AD&D, OD&D, or BECMI games being played in store. But that doesn't surprise me, even though two of the stores carry used material, it amounts to a handful of modules or supplements, and not enough to support that type of game. Of course, D&D is completely overshadowed by MtG at these stores as well.

Actually, I just thought of something (ding!) that really highlights how the presentation makes such a difference. I've run public sessions on-and-off for at least 20 years. I love to give new players an opportunity to learn. In the AD&D/2e days I was manager at a book store, and I'd run public games there. While we'd have some seasoned gamers (including a couple from the store), most of them would be new to the game. More importantly, they didn't even own a PHB. So we'd help them make a character, explain a couple of core thoughts (attack rolls, skill checks, spellcasting), but move on with it. "Don't worry about the rules, just tell us what you want to do and we'll tell you how to do it."

That was the default method of teaching I used (and still do when I introduce somebody to the game at home).

Now, when I run a public campaign at a game store, it's a bunch of new players, most of who have the PHB or downloaded the Basic Rules and come to the table with a character, or at least an attempt of a character. They already "know" how to play the game, because they've read the rules, and might have tried a game or two with their friends right out of the book. But their focus tends to be on trying to understand the rules. So when we're in session, and people are talking, or in combat, etc, they are busy looking over their character sheet, or referencing the PHB, to find what they can (to some degree, "are allowed to") do. Their focus is already on the rules, and not the character.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
As long as there is a limit to how much you can improve by that way (just like magic items) and require some form of substantial campaign cost (like magic items), I would.
Number bonuses are not quite the problem, since they are easy to counter them (raising monsters stats when it fits).

Absolutely. In fact, it's almost required in my campaign because advancement is so slow. I also have crafting rules, researching new spells rules, allow people to train for skills, proficiencies (like weapons, my groups are a bit more restrictive), and things like that. Crafting doesn't require feats.

Gaining levels is usually by "experience" and by that I mean we don't use XP, we (the player and I) look at the "experience" of the character over time to pick when it's appropriate to raise a level. Downtime training, particularly with a skilled mentor, can accelerate or even replace this altogether.

But, they all have substantial campaign costs. Not gaming constructs (like spending XP). Crafting takes a long time, requires rare and/or expensive components, finding and/or researching the proper "recipe" and your own laboratory and, for the most part, your own laboratory. It takes time to enchant the item, and you suffer Constitution damage in the process. In my world you basically use the death save mechanic to recover each point of ability damage, one per day, and 3 failures indicates that particular point of ability damage is permanent. There are potential modifiers to this. Also, not only is there a chance of failure, it extends all the way to the possibility of blowing up the laboratory.

Training? Takes a significant amount of hours. Just like learning/researching a spell. You can do this for an hour or two a night when you stop for camp. But then characters in my campaign are relatively normal people. They'll stop at around dinnertime, usually after about 8 hours of adventuring, set up camp, eat, train, study, maintain and repair equipment, tell stories, and rest until daybreak. So a typical "long rest" is 12 to 14 hours of the day and incorporates a night's sleep in that time.

See, when most people are talking about having a crafting system, or training, or whatever, they are looking for a system that they can use and still adventure and gain a level every 3 to 6 sessions. We play 40 to 50 times a year, and at that pace it would be 6 to 13 levels of advancement each year using those rules. Instead, we tend to advance 2 to 4 levels each year, sometimes less. We look at it differently. Magic items are rare. If every adventurer (PC or NPC) could theoretically craft magic items and advance that quickly, then there would be a lot more high level adventurers, and a lot more magic items.
 

ValamirCleaver

Ein Jäger aus Kurpfalz
what is gold for?


Immortals Companion

The Immortals Companion is an unofficial supplement for the fifth edition of the worlds greatest roleplaying game.

Presented here are five sets of rules, most of which are conversions of rules from previous editions of the game, and all of which are updated for use with fifth edition.

These are:

* Dominion management rules, from the old "Companion" set.

* Mass combat rules, from the old "Companion" set.

* Rules for magical "Essence" that can be used to create magic items, from 4th edition.

* Rules for immortals, from the old "Immortals" set (including rules for a five dimensional multiverse!)

* Rules for time travel, extrapolated from the examples of time travel found in various classic adventures.

The rules are presented in a modular fashion, so you can choose which modules to use in your campaign.


Adventurer Conqueror King System

So many D&D games make reference to "gaining a stronghold and followers" at level 9, but they offer no interpretation of what that means, what that would be like. It's often relegated to story dressing, and doesn't get the attention that, say, combat does. ACKs fills in this sorely needed gap in a way that is largely compatible with most fantasy medieval games.

They say that what you give experience for in an RPG determines the kind of play you encourage. In this way, ACKs encourages ruling kingdoms, engaging in magical research, founding religions, running a thieves guild, or embarking on mercantile ventures as well as it does things like killing foes and stealing their treasure. Not only this, but it encourages doing these things boldly: timid rulers satisfied with their holds won't gain XP, but ambitious conquerors who expand their realm will.

Of course, these rules alone are worth the price of entry, and are easily ported to your game of choice, as the economic ideas underpinning the XP rewards are consistent enough to survive translation as long as you properly anchor to common worths. But the actual rules for playing adventurers are good too. You get a servicable expansion of available classes that simultaneously preserves the feel of "race as class" while giving people playing demihumans more options than usual.
 

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