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D&D 5E In fifth-edition D&D, what is gold for?

Caliburn101

Explorer
In the realm of discourse, expressing a problem one is experiencing and denying the existance of that problem are not symmetrical. The former is (1) an expression of frustration, (2) a search for a solution, or (3) an attempt to gather other viewpoints. (There can be overlap.) By contrast, the latter serves only to attack the legitimacy of the experiences and opinions of others.

(In case 3, I would consider it appropriate to share personal experiences that differ from the expressed problem, but that's quite different from the inherent hostility of denying the existence of the problem in the first place.)

Then following your reasoning, please explain then how stating that there is a problem doesn't invalidate the opinion of the people who don't see that there is a problem?

In this very thread I initially offered simple solutions to the issue of what to do with gold in a game only to have my suggestion of having magical item shops in a game as 'derisory'. I didn't react entirely appropriately as per the rules on that, and was moderated. Fair enough, but the core point still stands.

It is a primary rule of debate that critiquing an argument is not an 'attack' on the individual, because without that paradigm, no-one could disagree about anything without offending the other party.

Is that what we are supposed to do here - in which case, how does one proceed in any discussion where there is disagreement?

Does one need to open another thread with the contrary point of view whilst 'ignoring' the other thread so never the twain shall meet?

I don't see the validity of usefulness of that. If we cannot say - "I don't agree with x, have you considered y" or "I don't think that's correct, here's why" then the forum becomes a place where it is effectively 'against the rules' to disagree in case you might offend someone.

Is that what you would advocate, or have I missed the point?
 
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Xetheral

Three-Headed Sirrush
In the realm of discourse, expressing a problem one is experiencing and denying the existance of that problem are not symmetrical. The former is (1) an expression of frustration, (2) a search for a solution, or (3) an attempt to gather other viewpoints. (There can be overlap.) By contrast, the latter serves only to attack the legitimacy of the experiences and opinions of others.

(In case 3, I would consider it appropriate to share personal experiences that differ from the expressed problem, but that's quite different from the inherent hostility of denying the existance of the problem in the first place.)
Then following your reasoning, please explain then how stating that there is a problem doesn't invalidate the opinion of the people who don't see that there is a problem?

Because the two claims aren't symmetric. The statement "x is a problem" is a limited claim relating to the speaker's experience--it's true so long as the speaker (or anyone else) finds x problematic. The contrasting claim "x isn't a problem" is a sweeping claim relating to the experience of everyone else--it's false if even a single person finds x problematic.

Of course, if only a single person finds x problematic, it's highly likely that x isn't worth fixing. And depending on the costs of solving x, it might not be worth fixing even if its widely considered problematic. There can also be plenty of debate regarding the best solution for x. Consider the following analogy:

Let's say you're having a problem with your neighbors being too loud. You go to a city council meeting to request that your community enact a noise ordinance. Person A stands up to oppose your request, stating that they don't think that a noise ordinance is the best way to address your problem because <reasons>. Person B stands up to oppose your request, stating they think the costs of imposing a noise ordinance are too high to justify fixing the problem. Person C stands up to oppose your request, stating that their neighbors aren't too loud. Person D stands up to oppose your request, stating that loud neighbors aren't a problem.

By definition, you're the only one qualified to say whether your neighbors' volume is a problem--whether or not something is a problem is a judgment call that every individual has the right to make for themselves. Persons A and B have respected that autonomy, but have suggested (respectively) that another solution might be better, or that the problem isn't worth fixing. Person C hasn't respected that autonomy, suggesting that the problem shouldn't be fixed merely because they don't have a similar problem, effectively prioritizing their own experiences over yours. (Note however, that Person C's experience may be relevant to Person B's counterargument, insofar as it contributes (albeit anecdotally) to the cost/benefit analysis B is undertaking.) Person D isn't merely failing to respect your autonomy, they're going further and implying either that (1) they know better than you what you consider problematic or (2) you're lying about what you consider problematic; both implications are inherently hostile, and serve only to attack you.

If my explanation or my analogy helped clear things up, fantastic. If not, I suspect that we may disagree as to what it means for something to be "a problem". Within the scope of a given community, I consider the set of all "problems" to be a superset of the problems of all members of that community. I suspect that you may be using an alternative definition, whereby within the scope of a given community, the set of all "problems" consists only of those problems that the members share. Is my suspicion correct? (If so, I'm happy to explain why I consider my definition to be more useful.)
 
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CapnZapp

Legend
In the realm of discourse, expressing a problem one is experiencing and denying the existance of that problem are not symmetrical. The former is (1) an expression of frustration, (2) a search for a solution, or (3) an attempt to gather other viewpoints. (There can be overlap.) By contrast, the latter serves only to attack the legitimacy of the experiences and opinions of others.

(In case 3, I would consider it appropriate to share personal experiences that differ from the expressed problem, but that's quite different from the inherent hostility of denying the existance of the problem in the first place.)
Thank you.

There is a huge problem with a small but vocal group of posters who try to derail or shut down or minimize or apologize for any percieved problem with 5E.

These people should in my opinion be moderated for being off topic if they essentially say "no there isn't" in a thread about identifying, fixing, dicussing a certain issue.

Hopefully we will get "plus threads" where this moderation will be enforced, so we can have a thread such as "[+] How to give players non-downtime options for spending lots of gold" with only on-topic constructive positive discussion :)
 

AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
Because the two claims aren't symmetric. The statement "x is a problem" is a limited claim relating to the speaker's experience--it's true so long as the speaker (or anyone else) finds x problematic. The contrasting claim "x isn't a problem" is a sweeping claim relating to the experience of everyone else--it's false if even a single person finds x problematic.
So someone stating a complaint or problem, but not using specifying language such as "for me", "in my experience", or "at my table" is given the benefit of the doubt that they did in fact mean their complaint as applying only to their own experience rather than to all possible experiences... and anyone saying they don't share that complaint or don't have that problem is refused the same benefit of the doubt that they are only talking about their own experience rather than about all possible experiences?

That seems intentionally unfair to me. We should either all be taken at the face value of our chosen words - meaning "X is a problem" is not the same statement as "X is a problem for me" - or we should all be given the same leeway to phrase things as grand, sweeping, universal claims and have those be interpreted as if we chose a phrasing that applied only to our selves - meaning "X is not a problem" is the same statement as "X is not a problem for me."
 

Xetheral

Three-Headed Sirrush
So someone stating a complaint or problem, but not using specifying language such as "for me", "in my experience", or "at my table" is given the benefit of the doubt that they did in fact mean their complaint as applying only to their own experience rather than to all possible experiences... and anyone saying they don't share that complaint or don't have that problem is refused the same benefit of the doubt that they are only talking about their own experience rather than about all possible experiences?

Yes, because the two claims inherently have different scope: "x is a problem for me" (A) implies "x is a problem for someone" (B), but "x isn't a problem for me" (not A) does not imply "x isn't a problem for anyone" (not B). Therefore, it really doesn't matter if someone is making claim (A) or claim (B), but it makes a great deal of difference whether someone is claiming (not A) or (not B).

Also, I'm not sure that I've ever encountered anyone making a claim that their complaint applies to "all possible experiences" but I've certainly encountered (e.g. in this thread) people claiming that a complaint doesn't apply to anyone.

That seems intentionally unfair to me. We should either all be taken at the face value of our chosen words - meaning "X is a problem" is not the same statement as "X is a problem for me" - or we should all be given the same leeway to phrase things as grand, sweeping, universal claims and have those be interpreted as if we chose a phrasing that applied only to our selves - meaning "X is not a problem" is the same statement as "X is not a problem for me."

That would only be true if the claims were symmetric, and I'm arguing that they're not. I suspect either you're either incorrectly treating the negation of "x isn't a problem for anyone" (not B) as "x is a problem for everyone" (which, to my knowledge, no one is claiming) rather than "x is a problem for someone" (B), or else you disagree with me that (B) is sufficient for something to qualify as "a problem" (without limiter) in the first place, as I discuss in the last paragraph of my most recent post.
 
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AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
Also, I'm not sure that I've ever encountered anyone making a claim that their complaint applies to "all possible experiences" but I've certainly encountered (e.g. in this thread) people claiming that a complaint doesn't apply to anyone.
I think this is the root of why I don't agree with what you were saying.

I have seen complaints phrased as universal truths - which is what anyone saying things like "good rogues don't use bows" or "No one wears medium armor" are doing - but I have not seen anyone claiming that a complaint does not apply to anyone at all. Rather, I've seen, and even made, statements along the lines of "the thing you phrased as applying to everyone does not actually apply to everyone." Often those statements are even accompanied by attempts to point out whatever the person not having the problem might be doing differently from the person having the problem, in a genuine effort to help alleviate the problem.
 
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Xetheral

Three-Headed Sirrush
I think this is the root of why I don't agree with what you were saying.

I have seen complaints phrased as universal truths - which is what anyone saying things like "good rogues don't use bows" or "No one wears medium armor" are doing - but I have not seen anyone claiming that a complaint does not apply to anyone at all. Rather, I've seen, and even made, statements along the lines of "the thing you phrased as applying to everyone does not actually apply to everyone." Often those statements are even accompanied by attempts to point out whatever the person not having the problem might be doing differently from the person having the problem, in a genuine effort to help alleviate the problem.

(Emphasis added.) In regards to the bolded passage, I have, in this very thread. That you haven't suggests that we interpret others' posts significantly differently. I would be somewhat curious to find out whether that is because of our own biases regarding the specific topic at hand, or whether we simply take a different approach to interpretation. But resolving that is probably more effort than it's worth.

Out of curiosity, do you agree with my response to Caliburn that a denial that a problem exists (for anyone) is problematic in a way that asserting the problem exists (for someone) is not? (Assuming, arguendo, that such denials exist.)
 

AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
In regards to the bolded passage, I have, in this very thread.
I think it would be interesting to see how I interpret whatever post(s) you interpret as making that sort of claim. Would you mind giving me post numbers to reference?

Not that I intend to derail into a conversation about why we interpret things the way we do, because I'm certainly not interested in doing that, I just think it would be illuminating for me to see whether or not I see the post in the same way.
Out of curiosity, do you agree with my response to Caliburn that a denial that a problem exists (for anyone) is problematic in a way that asserting the problem exists (for someone) is not? (Assuming, arguendo, that such denials exist.)
I think that context of such a denial is too important to ignore, so I can't say if I agree or not other than to say I do believe that it is possible that a denial of a problem can be problematic, but it is not necessarily problematic because it can hypothetically be addressing a problem being falsely claimed to exist (note: I am not accusing anyone of having made such a false claim, just saying it is a possibility), or could be accompanied by other statements which contextually shape it to not actually be a denial that a problem exists, just that the problem which does exist is not accurately identified by the person claiming a problem (for example, if someone were claiming that their is a problem with how their hamburger tastes, when a more accurate statement of the problem is that they'd rather be eating fish but placed the order for what was clearly a hamburger anyways - it would not be problematic to say "the hamburger tastes fine", if it were accompanied by advice to remember the rest of the menu is available.)
 

Thank you.

There is a huge problem with a small but vocal group of posters who try to derail or shut down or minimize or apologize for any percieved problem with 5E.

These people should in my opinion be moderated for being off topic if they essentially say "no there isn't" in a thread about identifying, fixing, dicussing a certain issue.

Hopefully we will get "plus threads" where this moderation will be enforced, so we can have a thread such as "[+] How to give players non-downtime options for spending lots of gold" with only on-topic constructive positive discussion :)
But do the equally small but vocal group of posters starting threads really want to fix the issue?

There never seems to be much practical discussion on these threads. Just complaints and comments that WotC needs to fix things because house rules are somehow unacceptable, and any posts that attempt to fix the issue are ignored in favour of more arguing and debating.

(The tone of the DM Reddit where there's up/down voting is very, very different:
https://www.reddit.com/r/DnDBehindTheScreen/
It's a completely different community.)
 
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