In the PDF age all adventures should be compatible with all editions

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Gasp ... you mean I could have The Forest Oracle in 4E-compatible format?

How do you plan to handle map scaling? A fight in 1E that would take place in an empty 10' x 10' room now requires a 70' x 70' space equipped with lava and elevation changes.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Generally speaking translation from 1E to 2E to 3.5 to PF and C&C should be pretty minimal. Going from pre-4E to 4E is extremely problematic. Going from 4E backwards requires redesign but is certainly doable (but also open up sales potential to new demographics)

Well, tell you what, Greg... take one of your old 1E adventures you have lying around and then produce conversions of it for 2E, 3E, 3.5, PF, C&C and 4E. Then come back on here and tell us how long it took to produce those conversions.

I suspect your "it'd be easy!" statements to be a little different after that.

 

[GregoryOatmeal]

Well, tell you what, Greg... take one of your old 1E adventures you have lying around and then produce conversions of it for 2E, 3E, 3.5, PF, C&C and 4E. Then come back on here and tell us how long it took to produce those conversions.

To quote what I've already said

Generally speaking translation from 1E to 2E to 3.5 to PF and C&C should be pretty minimal. Going from pre-4E to 4E is extremely problematic. Going from 4E backwards requires redesign but is certainly doable (but also open up sales potential to new demographics)

So I'm not really disagreeing with you there. Since we're talking about new products they would be translated backwards, which is easier than going 1E to 4E since it doesn't require removing pointless encounters and expanding hallway sizes.

But suppose I had the original design document for Dwellers of the Forgotten City. In order to take it to:
C&C: Flip armor classes. Insert a strength check here and there for skill checks using a reasonable number. Possibly replace some spells that aren't in C&C with others that are. This shouldn't require more than three hours. If necessary it may require two playtests
3.5: Replace the monsters with 3.5 monsters and make sure CRs are reasonable. A 3.5 content specialist should be able to identify existing monsters in WOTC books and magazines, understand how to make a balanced encounter and understand how to scale monsters up/down. This shouldn't require any more than 8 hours and three playtests.

 

[DEFCON 1]

This shouldn't require any more than 8 hours and three playtests.

Fine... then take one of the WotC 4E modules and go in and do conversions for all the previous editions. Prove to yourself and to us that it really will only take 8 hours and 3 playtests.

It's incredibly easy to come on here complaining about WotC not doing some supposedly "easy" thing. But seeing as how this is one of the few complaints that can actually be proven to be true or false... show us that you aren't actually just pulling numbers and stats out of thin air.

 

[GregoryOatmeal]

This is like asking current game publishers to make copies of their games that work on the XBOX 360, Sega, NES and Atari 2600. All from the same CD.

No, no, not at all. You can easily convert a 4E module to 3.5/1E and sell the product to an active fan base via PDFs online. And very small publishers with limited audiences do - so clearly this can exist in the market. You can't restart production of NES cartridges (or CDs?) for Grand Theft Auto.

 

[El Mahdi]

ENworld sells multiple editions of their APs, as does Goodman Games (DCC), and they're targetting much smaller demographics.

If anything it would be cool if the 3.5/PF crowd could still find utility in WOTC adventures

ENWorld only makes their adventures compatible with two editions...two editions that share relatively equal popularity (WotBS was 3.5E and 4E, the new ones are 4E and Pathfinder). That's a far cry from providing conversions for all editions of D&D (which is actually something like 6 different editions) plus Pathfinder and any other D20 clone that fans ask for... Where do you draw the line?

And just because an adventure may require self conversion, and therefore is less convenient; that doesn't necessarily negate its utility. It is still usable...you just choose not to use it (for whatever reason).

 

[SSquirrel]

You would need to spend additional time, but I think this is overestimating the difficulty of translation. If you play-test and fine-tune each version to perfection, well, that would exponentially add cost. But you would also be adding value to the product so it appeals to more demographics, increasing sales. It's about hitting that balance.

And 1E and 2E seemed pretty unbalanced and poorly thought out at times, so why not continue that tradition?

B/c it's an awful tradition that should have died the death long ago. I'm not a big fan of modules anyway. Even a lot of the modules some people consider classics, they don't consider them classics b/c they were well written, it's all nostalgia speaking.

It isn't about hitting a balance. If WotC figures that 90% of the people who buy the module will be using it as a 4E module, there is no way they are going to spend all the extra time and effort converting the adventure to so many other editions of play. It is not a worthwhile use of their time. You're more likely to convince them to allow for an official fan site crowd sourcing conversions of various adventures to the different editions, but I honestly don't expect to see that either.

 

[Pentius]

How do you plan to handle map scaling? A fight in 1E that would take place in an empty 10' x 10' room now requires a 70' x 70' space equipped with lava and elevation changes.

4e doesn't require a big open space for fights any more than 1e did. That is, it was terrible, boring terrain in both of them. I haven't seen the maps for that module, but I'd likely try to open them up a bit regardless of what edition I was playing, unless there was a definite "cramped old crypt/cave" sort of vibe I wanted to maintain. And then, gasp, I could probably figure out how to use squeezing and rough terrain to add a little color.

So I'm not really disagreeing with you there. Since we're talking about new products they would be translated backwards, which is easier than going 1E to 4E since it doesn't require removing pointless encounters and expanding hallway sizes.

Removing pointless encounters is generally easier than converting them. If I convert an encounter, I have to look up the new version of the monster, make sure it's about the right strength to achieve the original intended effect, then record the stats. If I remove one, I look at a line that says "X number of dire rats" and cross it out. Or, actually, I don't cross it out and just don't use it(scribbling in the books not being a habit of mine). Maybe I make a mental note to narrate some normal rats fleeing.

Really, going from 1e to 3.x requires some judgement calls and handwavium. Going from either of those to 4e requires some judgement calls and handwavium. I've converted 1e to 3.5 and 3.5 to 4e, and will probably convert 1e to 4e soon enough, and none of those was particularly harder than the others.

 

[Hussar]

/snip
- Remake encounters for 4E based on my 1E copy
- Rebuy the 4E version of what I already own for $77 on ebay
- Convince my gaming group to learn 1E or a retroclone and make characters for that
- Look for an adaptation on the internet
All of those options are terribly inconvenient. They guarantee that D&D adventures have limited shelf-life and limited value. That needs to stop.
/snip.

Umm, the 4e version is most certainly not the same as the 1e version. Not even close.

To quote what I've already said

So I'm not really disagreeing with you there. Since we're talking about new products they would be translated backwards, which is easier than going 1E to 4E since it doesn't require removing pointless encounters and expanding hallway sizes.

But suppose I had the original design document for Dwellers of the Forgotten City. In order to take it to:
C&C: Flip armor classes. Insert a strength check here and there for skill checks using a reasonable number. Possibly replace some spells that aren't in C&C with others that are. This shouldn't require more than three hours. If necessary it may require two playtests
3.5: Replace the monsters with 3.5 monsters and make sure CRs are reasonable. A 3.5 content specialist should be able to identify existing monsters in WOTC books and magazines, understand how to make a balanced encounter and understand how to scale monsters up/down. This shouldn't require any more than 8 hours and three playtests.

Now you've shifted the goalposts. Earlier it was bringing stuff forward, now it's only multi-statting things backward. The big question here is, why would anyone who's playing, say, Castle's and Crusades WANT a 4e conversion module? They have their own modules for their own games.

And, the idea that you can convert on the fly from 1e to 3e is utter and complete ballocks. The design priorities are just entirely different. Every single character works differently and every single monster is different.

But, lets say, just for the sake of argument, you're numbers are right. 8 hours to convert, for every edition, plus 3 playtests. So, we're talking about 800 dollars per edition for the conversion work (and that's probably REALLY REALLY low) plus 3x4 hour playtests for 5-8 people (because the baseline group assumptions have changed between editions), so about 80 man hours there, or about 8000 dollars.

So, add in editing, linesetting, actually MAKING the pdf's, that sort of thing, you're looking about about ten grand per module. How many pdf's could they sell of this? When some of the absolute best selling pdf's (outside of maybe the PF core rules) sell about 2000 copies, you're looking at losing a HELL of a lot of money.

 

[prosfilaes]

TSR converted the first edition Dragonlance modules (DL series) to second edition (DLC series). This should have been a easy job; one conversion instead of many, between two very close systems.

They failed, from what I've read. DL1 ended in a challenging encounter with an ancient black dragon. The corresponding 2e module ended in a fight with an ancient black dragon--but now, since 2e powered up dragons significantly, the same ancient black dragon would wipe out a party of level 4-6. Do the same sort of naive conversion to 3.5, and you'll end that adventure with a CR 19 encounter.