Incarnum interest level?

[Psion]

This is entirely true.

I've thought of different ways to conceptualize it, and they almost universally seem better than the system's default. For instance, in the right campaign, you could adapt it as mechanization rather than soulstuff -- each day, you can install bits and pieces of arcane machinery to grant you special abilities and enhance you powers.

That sounds really cool.

Sounds like the book needs OGL treatment, so someone else can dress it up better.

 

[I'm A Banana]

That's a lot like writing off feats because you don't think Alertness is interesting.

*You can do more with incarnum than just skill check bonuses*.

So what can you do with it that merits the language of binding the essence of souls to your body? What fantastic, transcendant, awe-inspiring powers do any of these classes have to offer me? What should grab my imagination about it? What is the best, most fantastic, most amazing thing that someone who is capable of sealing the naked being of pure existence onto their own flesh and blood can do with it?

What, in short, makes it worth the time and effort I'd have to invest in mastering the obscure tongue? Growing limbs and adapting the weapons of others is one of the things I'd expect, and the totemist delivers. Flying? SR? Skill bonuses, to-hit bonuses, damage bonueses, movement bonuses? Piffle. There's a million and one things that do that already, and it's just book learning, faith, personality, and austerity in them. When a cleric manipulates a single soul he can bring the dead back from the afterlife after weeks in the dirt. When an Incarnate manipulates many souls sharing epic powers and heroism throughout time and space he....can hit a bit better?

MoI doesn't fail at all in mechanics. The mechanics are solid and interesting. It fails in tying those mechanics to a good concept. On flavor, it falls down, and it falls *hard*.

However, I do agree that it isn't much for big, flashy magic. That's psionics and regular magic. Did we need Yet Another system that was exactly the same? The difference between psionics and regular magic is... power points. Ooh.

I'm manipulating the stuff of souls, here. I should be creating life, wrestling heroic spirits, embodying the great heroes not just to give me a slightly better chance to hit, but to drive home the fact that I can call on great heroes to empower me. I should be overwhelmed by powers beyond my own, and overwhelming those who oppose me. I should be scattering my foes like chaff in the wind with blows of epic legend. I should be defining where life ends and where it begins, giving birth to complete beings out of myself, shaping screaming spirits into my own playthings.

The language and flavor of MoI is big and flashy. Heck, it's bigger and flashier than almost anything else that there could possibly be. But the powers do not stack up. So the flavor -- one of the core pillars of the book -- needs to be entirely overhauled.

Psionics and magic are not dramtically different in mechanics. That's not really my point. The mechanics of MoI are fine. Psionics and magic are dramatically different in flavor.

The Wizard studies dusty tomes in secretive towers and acadamies where knowledge and pure intellectual power break the bonds of reality and redefine the laws of physics. This allows him to throw balls of fire, see accross the world, travel the planes, and mutate his body, and the bodies of others. The wizard exists in definition -- he can prove that you are a toad as he turns you into one.

The Cleric devoutly worships his chosen deity, offering prayers and sacrifice in exchange for deific might. His devotion defines the world around him, and his adherence to that devotion's code enables him to enact his faith on the world. Either he borrows some of the infinite cosmic power of the gods (who never allow much to seep into the hands of mortals), or he uses only the power of his own conviction to redefine the way the world works. He convinces the world that he is right, and the world listens. That is why he is able to heal the sick, smite his foes, and gain and impart personal power. The cleric exists in the superhuman -- he can tap the celestial sphere, and make you more than you can be alone.

The Psion abuses herself with austere rigors, subjecting his body and mind to stresses, drugs, and experiences designed to break her limitations. Her stress and her pain open up vistas beyond imagining, beyond the normal bounds of mortal life, and her mental discipline allows her to use that energy to pierce the world, to re-envision it in the way she sees. The crystals speak of transcendance, of rock that has become more than rock through millennia of honing, stress, and strain. Likewise, she becomes more of a person in the same ways, cutting and refining herself, leaving scars and tatoos, mentally jarring herself out of the everyday to see what lies beyond. This is why they can travel through time, manipulate the mind, see the future, and change their own forms. The psion exists in the breaking point between here and there, you and her -- she can cross the barrier, change the world, and return to herself.

The Incarnate...or the Soulborn...does, what, exactly? Devotes themselves to an ideal like a cleric, kind of...but they either can or can't manipulate Incarnum. And there seems to be no source for this other than others who can do the same thing. It's not a logical extention of self, it's not a personal power in the world. And yet, apparently, one's own health, hardiness, and resilience allows one to manipualte the stuff of souls. The spirits are supposedly all-inclusive: time and space are meaningless to Incarnum. Yet Incarnum basically only powers up the user, letting them do what they could do (or what magic items or other spellcasters could help them do) slightly better than they could do it before. But it's not self-betterment, self-augmentation, or self-adjustment...it's external, manipulating a force, bringing it to bear on you. That force should be immensely powerful -- it is the stuff of all souls, after all. And yet what it does isn't that mighty. Heck, all a wizard does is study books, and he can fly around. All a cleric does is burn some incesnse and learn some prayers, and he can make himself better at hitting. All a psion does is fast and recite some koans, and she can pierce time and space. As an Incarnate, I manipulate the infinity of souls. I should blow these pretenders out of the water, because, hey, THE INFINITY OF ALL SOULS EVER IN TIME AND SPACE vs. your dusty old book! Scissors beats paper, man! But what can I actually do? I can maybe see magical auras, fly around, and, depending on my alignment, do some fancy footwork in the front rank. The infinity of souls at my disposal, and I make pretty helmets and sandals out of them? Seems like a collossal waste....at least the Totemist can grow some limbs and spit some fire and act like a monster.

If the flavor was different, it wouldn't be so bad. It's not hard to make different flavor. Make it mechanical augmentations to the body (golemcraft exists, after all). Make them polymorphic alterations of form (we do have lots of shapechangers in the game). Make it the craft of the greatest of smiths (I think the book could've just leaned more heavily on the Moradin/Dwarf idea and done just fine, too). Make it some unholy necromancy where you dig up body parts and replace your own with them (you are your own Frankenstien). Make it a pact with outsiders where angels rush to your aid or a demon replaces your body (this is probably the direction I would take it, actually). Make it about ghosts, about nature spirits, or about a team of helpful squirrels who run out of your bum, all over your body, and manage to help you with the things you need to do. But don't make it about the stuff of souls made substance and expect to be able to get away with "Now you can run faster!"

And as the leader in the inudstry, it is WotC's bloody JOB to be able to figure this out. They should be providing me with things I can use, not interesting ideas I have to half-cobble together to make some semblance of work. Not things that I could describe better given a few hours to ponder. They obviously do a bang-up job on designing rules. But that doesn't let them off the hook for designing a bad framing device. The framing device is arguably many orders of magnitude MORE important than rules.

 

[MerricB]

Just got this.

Races.... do they ever go into more detail about the 'father' of those two races in the races section?

The one race in here that's in essence human... I'm almost tempted to say 'm'eh' on that as we've already got the elan, illumians, mohj and other humans that are no longer human.

Actually, the Azurin is the best of the races as it requires no adaptation to fit it into an ongoing campaign. I find new races almost useless most of the time because they don't fit in Greyhawk, but the Azurin are just humans that are slightly better at using Incarnum. Very easy to add.

It looks like a few of the PrCs can be used by those who don't even have Incarnium use though like the Incarnium Soulblade and Incarnium Champion.

Yep. (It's a bit like the PrC in Complete Divine that give divine abilities to regular PCs).

Haven't dug too deep into it yet. I do see what some people would be bothered by the alignment bits though. They should've included some sidebars about using this in settings iwthout alignments or changing some of the stuff here. (Unless it's there and I just missed it.)

page 24: Adapting Incarnates suggests removing the alignment focus with a couple of tips.
page 28: ditto for Soulborns.

Have they done any support for this in Dragon?

Not that I've seen. I'm tempted to try my hand at writing an article, though.

This, like Psionics, would probably benefit hugely if they opened it up. I've love to see some expansions and like spells or psionics, the more you have at your disposal, the better it is.

Absolutely!

One thing I notice though, is that, if I'm reading it right, you lose the use of that 'slot' if you have a meld in that spot. Makes the characters pretty self reliant in some ways but at higher levels, sounds like a heck of a price to pay.

Not quite. A soulmeld doesn't kill the slot, but binding it to a chakra does. The feat "Split Chakra" then allows both a magic item and a bound chakra.

Do like how it has a lot of support though for various facets of play including epic level, substitution levels, etc...

Very impressive. It even has Warlock support! (I just wish there was some Weapons of Legacy support).

Cheers!

 

[MerricB]

Incidentally, I've had no problem in building rather effective low level Incarnates.

High level is where it gets more challenging.

LN Azurin Incarnate 20 - essentia 29
Medium Outsider (Incarnum, Lawful)
Str 20, Dex 13, Con 26, Wis 12
Base Atk: +10; HP 232
Atk: +8 lawful, force longsword +36/+31 (1d8+13 + Stun + once-9d6 electricity/19-20)
or
+11 ranged touch (8d6 acid + 8d6 acid (following round), 30 ft range)

SA: Incarnum Radiance: +6 melee attacks, 4/day (lasts entire combat, also share with Lawful allies within 30') - the attack bonuses above assume this is being used.
SQ: Perfect Meldshaper 1/day (Free action, lasts 4 rounds, all soulmelds have essentia at maximum capacity during that time)
Feats: Expanded Soulmeld Capacity x3, Bonus Essentia, Split Chakra (throat), Split Chakra (soul)
Soulmelds: (capacity 6)
* (soul) Incarnate Avatar 7: +7 insight on melee attack rolls
* (arms) Incarnate Weapon 8: +8 longsword, fortitude stunning (bound)
* (feet) Airstep Sandals 0: (fly 10'+10' per essentia as move action)
* (hands) Lightning Gauntlets 8: +9d6 electricity damage on one attack (bound)
* (crown) Crystal Helm 0 (bound) melee attacks have force descriptor
* (shoulders) Mantle of Flame 6: any striking the PC in melee takes 7d6 fire damage
* (throat) Dissolving Spittle 0 (bound)
* (brow) Planar Chausible 0 (bound) (resist fire 10 + 5/point of essentia)
* (waist) Vitality Belt 0 (not bound) (+20 hp per essentia point invested)
Magic Items:
* (throat) Amulet of Health +6
* (waist) Girdle of Giant Strength +6
* (arms) Incarnum bracers
* (hands) Incarnum gauntlets

As a point of comparison, the 18th level Tordek in Bastion of Broken Souls is HP 229, Atk +31/+26/+21/+16 (1d10+14/18-20/x3).

Notes: Incarnum bracers and Incarnum Gauntlets give +1 capacity to those slots, as do the Expanded Soulmeld Capacity

Cheers!

 

[WizarDru]

High level is where it gets more challenging.

LN Azurin Incarnate 20 - essentia 29

YANK!

Thank you kindly.

 

[Storyteller01]

While I don't see it becoming a major part of most of my campaigns, I'd certainly like to incorporate it here and there, as appropriate. And I've already talked to the DM in the group I game with on Thursdays about making my backup character an incarnum-user, should anything happen (Heaven forfend) to my druid.

Ditto. Just had a player multi-class his Trollkin Fellcaller with Totemist (Now we call 'im Totem Singer). May not become a huge part of my game, but it's enough of a change to be interesting.

 

[Dark Psion]

The main problem is just figuring out how it fits into your world.

I use a four power set up; Arcane opposes Nature and Psionics opposes Divine and I have decided that Incarnum exists where all four meet in the middle. It is simply Primal energy, it is Potential in it's raw form. It can be used by anyone by way of the Incarnum feats, but only mastered by the three classes in the book.

As Kamikaze Midget pointed out, the real question is exactly how one masters Incarnum? Why does alignment play such a part in the mastery? And of course, why do Totemist get all the good soulmelds?

 

[MerricB]

As Kamikaze Midget pointed out, the real question is exactly how one masters Incarnum? Why does alignment play such a part in the mastery? And of course, why do Totemist get all the good soulmelds?

It's a good question about the last. (In fact, the Incarnate *does* get good soulmelds, but they're certainly not as obvious as the Totemist's).

Incarnates and Soulborns draw upon the soul energies of humans and outsiders for the most part, or strongly-aligned creatures. From that they gain primarily the skills, but occasionally the special abilities, of those beings. Totemists relate more to the magical beasts of the world - and, in some ways, make a lot more sense than the druids that only relate to animals.

Although it's very inexact, I tend to relate Incarnum to The Void Which Binds from Dan Simmon's Hyperion Cantos. There's a vast pool of experience and skill contained within the Incarnum, and experienced users can dip into it and borrow what they need.

I'd very much like to see the Knowledge skills within the Incarnate's purview, but that's not the case.

Incarnates tend more towards the generalist. I'd compare them most with the Bard, although they're probably better combatants.

Cheers!

 

[DM_Matt]

Incarnum seems like it also accidently somehwat models Alter Power from S-CRY-ED.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Still reading the book.

1. Races: You know, I think that MerricB may be right in that the 'human' race there is actually one of the better choices if you want to add some Incarnum to your game at a low level or even introduce it to a longer arced campaign.

2. Classes: Just my opinon, but I don't like the main incarnum user. The warrior-incarnum one (soulborn?) seems pretty standard and able to hold his own in the paladin/ranger/monk alternative fighter group. The totemist... yeah, I'm digging this class. Medium bab, medium hit dice, some great soul melds. I am a little confused on the totem thing though. It says that you can't use a slot for totem but that you can use it for totem! I'll have to re-read that whole section.

3. Substitution Levels: very unexpected to see them in there for the core races and some of the alternatives like the asimar and tieflings. Good deal and gets the big old thumbs up.

4. Feats: The names were pretty lame for some of them and the whole "you're eyes turn blue!" got annoying after a few passages. Having said that, I like that you can add little bits of Incarnum to the game without really using it. If you had a soul knife thief for example and took the two Incarnum based feats here, you could either have a really dangerous back stab or a dangerous psychic blade. Some other good stuff here as well for the incarnum users.

5. Prestige Classes: To me, this is where the book really comes through. Some PrCs here that can be used without having any previous Incarnum abilities, but much better when combined with them like their version of the spellcaster who continues advancing as an Incarnum user at the same time, or their PrC for the Rogue.

6. Monsters: Some good stuff here.

7. Magic Items: Have to reread this section.

8. Campaign Advice/Seeds: If I had more time and more energy, I'd definatly make use of the whole "Last Mishaf/Elder" thing. It's a perfect set up to gradually and then more intensely, introduce Incarnum into the campaign. Like the Pentex Organization as well.

Overall feel is pretty good on the book. I'll have to stat out a few characters and see how that goes.

Layout is standard WoTC. Art varies tremendously. Some great illos by Ron Spencer there as well as Wayne England and Wayne Reynolds but one guy, I think Poole? does some really bad art jobs her with figures standing in stances that just seem wrong.

And I'll say it again, a system like this needs support in either Dragon or being made open. Wizards, clerics, and even psions have benefited from having more 3rd party powers to draw on.