Inclusion at the cost of Generalization

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I see a lot of people on this site who automatically assume "offense" to be sexual, gender, racial, or religious biases only.

I've literally heard people say that Rolemaster should never had been printed because it scares newbs.

I've seen people turn around and leave a game store because it carried Vampire. And for Palladium. In both cases, they came in looking for specific games, and were so offended at the idea of some of the games that they complained and refused to come back while those were on sale. I know one of them called in a year later, and was shocked that they still carried vampire. (that person was looking for Dragonraid... which, if you don't know it, look it up.) I know a few gamers who were offended that Dragonraid was carried by the same store... FYI, it's equally as non-inclusive as RaHoWa or Fatal, but in a different direction.

People take offense for some very different reasons. Some of them damned petty.

That all, and the previous examples, are anecdotal.

 

[BookTenTiger]

I see a lot of people on this site who automatically assume "offense" to be sexual, gender, racial, or religious biases only.

I've literally heard people say that Rolemaster should never had been printed because it scares newbs.

I've seen people turn around and leave a game store because it carried Vampire. And for Palladium. In both cases, they came in looking for specific games, and were so offended at the idea of some of the games that they complained and refused to come back while those were on sale. I know one of them called in a year later, and was shocked that they still carried vampire. (that person was looking for Dragonraid... which, if you don't know it, look it up.) I know a few gamers who were offended that Dragonraid was carried by the same store... FYI, it's equally as non-inclusive as RaHoWa or Fatal, but in a different direction.

People take offense for some very different reasons. Some of them damned petty.

I'm honestly trying to understand your argument here.

Are you saying that games like Vampire, Dragonraid, RaHoWa (whatever that is) and FATAL are... not inclusive? Offensive? Or that some people you have seen find them offensive?

What does this have to do with the original post?

EDIT: Okay, reading this for the fifth time, I see that you are considering "Offensive" to include "too complex for new players."

Making games accessible to new players is absolutely important. However, that's not what "inclusion" means in the context of gaming.

 

[MGibster]

I see a lot of people on this site who automatically assume "offense" to be sexual, gender, racial, or religious biases only.

I've literally heard people say that Rolemaster should never had been printed because it scares newbs.

Having a dislike for something isn't the same as being offended by it. I will never play a game using the Palladium rules because I dislike them but they don't offend me.

I've seen people turn around and leave a game store because it carried Vampire. And for Palladium. In both cases, they came in looking for specific games, and were so offended at the idea of some of the games that they complained and refused to come back while those were on sale.

It sounds like the game store really dodged a bullet there. What did they find so offensive about Vampire and Palladium games?

People take offense for some very different reasons. Some of them damned petty.

This is certainly true. Sometimes you just have to shrug your shoulders, say okay, and move on though.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

RaHoWa (whatever that is)

To clarify, that’s a common abbreviation for the RPG, Racial Holy War. As you might guess, it’s not the most inclusive of games.

 

[ccs]

You obviously never played Enforcers which was a point based superhero game set in the 21st century that came out in the late 1980s. The game advertised itself as easy and fast, but during character generation you had to use square roots to come up with some of the statistics. The game included instructions for how to set up a Lotus spreadsheet to make character generation easy! I've played plenty of games with bad rules over the years but this one was the most offensive.

I don't know about offensive, but that definitely sounds like homework.
I think our math teachers would've rejoiced if they'd discovered we were playing games where we had to use square roots.

 

[Guest 6801328]

So, the people who are offended are not "random". They are people who have felt the sting of real-world racism, or who have learned that the folks who are subject to racism need some support from those who are not.

I thought the OP was referring to himself as the random offended person. Guess I'll have to read more carefully next time.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

How do modern videogames and RPGs oversimplify mechanics to appeal to a wider audience? Do you think it's worth it? How could you reach multiple types of people without simplifying the game and removing anything, no matter how important, just because some random person was offended?

To be honest, I'm not even sure what you are talking about or mean. To "appeal to a wider audience" is the only thing I really understand. The simplest answer to that is "Lowest common denominator". Effectively, 'water it down as much as possible so that it's hard for anyone to have any difficulty with it'. For example, "First do A, then B, then C"...might be too complex for some people. So reduce; "First do A, then B". Still two choices and may confuse a very small amount of people. So "Do A". Can't get more "reduced" than that, so that's what you go with. Basically, for RPG's, any game that has no mention of anything other than "The Player", and all the game mechanics use a single d6 or deck of regular playing cards, and can fit on a single sheet of 11"x8.5" paper.

Oh...I just re-read the last line. LOL! Must have glossed over it the first time! IMNSHO...don't sweat it. Just create what you think is cool and fun, and what you think you and your friends, people in your area, folks in your "RPG Club" you host at the local library every 2 weeks, etc. (re: people in your 'life'). If someone gets offended, ask why. If it makes any kind of sense to you, then think about changing it (if the offended person can give you specifics...not just "well, it's just that...well...it's offensive!" isn't going to cut it). Then make the changes if it wouldn't suck all the 'fun' out of what you think was, well, fun. Tweak it to be a bit more 'soft' on the wording and/or importance. If they are STILL offended...just shrug your shoulders, say "Oh, sorry you feel that way", and then walk away. No point in trying to convince them NOT to be offended, and no point in them trying to convince you TO be offended; that never ends well. People are different. That's a good thing. May be painful or uncomfortable sometimes, but hey, nobody said life was all puppies and rainbows!

The old saying "You can please some of the people, some of the time...but you can't please all of the people, all of the time" is just as true now as it was a hundred years ago. Trying to beat yourself up over someone else's life experiences is nothing but a shortcut to stress, unhappiness, and an early grave.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[MGibster]

In all honesty, I don't think there's any formula for creating something that has mass appeal. We can analyze something that's popular in an attempt to figure out why its appealing, but we can't necessarily take what we learned, apply it to a game, and expect it to be popular. Even the experts don't always know what's going to be a hit. Eight publishers passed on Harry Potter, early MTV was hesitant to play hip hop videos mostly limiting it to Yo! MTV Raps at first, and almost everyone involved in filming the original Star Wars thought the movie was, to quote Mark Hamil, "a turkey."

 

[MGibster]

I don't know about offensive, but that definitely sounds like homework.
I think our math teachers would've rejoiced if they'd discovered we were playing games where we had to use square roots.

Well I'm only joking...sort of. I think I was all of 12 when I bought and I was bit miffed how this quick and easy game wanted me to use square roots to calculate stats during character generation. Oh, and let's not forget Cyborg Commando!

 

[reelo]

If someone gets offended, ask why. If it makes any kind of sense to you, then think about changing it (if the offended person can give you specifics...not just "well, it's just that...well...it's offensive!" isn't going to cut it). Then make the changes if it wouldn't suck all the 'fun' out of what you think was, well, fun. Tweak it to be a bit more 'soft' on the wording and/or importance. If they are STILL offended...just shrug your shoulders, say "Oh, sorry you feel that way", and then walk away.

This is, imho, the best approach.