Incorporeal creatures and touch attacks
- Thread starter d20Dwarf
- Start date
MerakSpielman
First Post
I'm not sure. Can a monk/sorcerer cast Ghoul Touch and make his regular unarmed melee attack, with the effects stacking? If so, I think you can do this.
Something I've been wondering: Do the rules prohibit the use of Power Attack for incorporeal touch attacks?
Something I've been wondering: Do the rules prohibit the use of Power Attack for incorporeal touch attacks?
James McMurray
First Post
MerakSpielman said:
Yes, a monk can do that, but they have to cast the spell in one round and attack in the next round.
Yes. If you're incorporeal you have no strength score. If you have no strength sore, you don't have Strength 13+, the prereq for power attack. If you don't have a feat's prereq, you lose access to that feat until the prereq is restored.
the Jester
Legend
I'd say you can cast a touch spell and stack it with your touch attack, no problem.
As to power attack, you can't take the feat without a str of 13 or better, but if you somehow got it as a bonus feat- say, from a prestige class or magic item or other source (that specifies "even if you don't have the usual prerequisities" or whatever) I don't think it breaks the rules to power attack. However, it might break the spirit of the rules.
How about a ghost that was formerly a power attacking fighter, with ghostly weapons and the like?
Another, somewhat related question that this thread brought to mind- say I become a ghost and my equipment turns ghostly. Say I have a belt of giant strength +6 (now ghostly). What's my strength score? Does the belt work on a nonability?
As to power attack, you can't take the feat without a str of 13 or better, but if you somehow got it as a bonus feat- say, from a prestige class or magic item or other source (that specifies "even if you don't have the usual prerequisities" or whatever) I don't think it breaks the rules to power attack. However, it might break the spirit of the rules.
How about a ghost that was formerly a power attacking fighter, with ghostly weapons and the like?
Another, somewhat related question that this thread brought to mind- say I become a ghost and my equipment turns ghostly. Say I have a belt of giant strength +6 (now ghostly). What's my strength score? Does the belt work on a nonability?
ThirdWizard
First Post
Can any incorporeal being do hit point damage? They have no weight, can't push against you, can't really affect you in any way. How are they going to cut you or harm you physically? By the letter of the rules, though, I can't find anything denying them the ability to do physical harm with a natural attack, so I see no reason to deny them Power Attack by RAW. Just because they can't use a Str score doesn't mean they don't have one, and nothing under the incorporeal subtype states that they don't have that ability score.
d20Dwarf said:
What manifesting does for a Ghost is allow him to become incorporeal.
3.5 MM page 118
"When a ghost manifests, it partially enters the Material Plane and becomes visible but incorporeal on the Material Plane."
3.5 DMG page 295
"Incorporeal creatures are present on the same plane as the characters, and characters have some chance to affect them."
3.5 MM page 118
"When a spellcasting ghost manifests, its spells continue to affect ethereal targets and can affect targets on the Material Plane normally unless the spells rely on touch. A manifested ghost's touch spells don't work on nonethereal targets."
The implication here is that a ghost becomes an incorporeal creature when it manifests and that manifesting does not allow touch spells. A DM could rule that a Ghost attacking with an incorporeal touch attack cannot stack on its touch spells, but other incorporeal creatures can. However, I consider this to be inconsistent.
3.5 DMG page 6
"Look to any similar situation that is covered in the rulebook. Try to extrapolate from what you see presented there and apply it to the current circumstance."
3.5 DMG page 295
"Likewise, they cannot manipulate objects or exert physical force on objects. However, incorporeal creatures have a tangible presence that sometimes seems like a physical attack (such as the touch of a Spectre) against a corporeal creature."
I think that the intent is clear though. Incorporeal touch attacks are not corporeal. They are special attacks that drain life levels or do other harmful things, but they are not physical touches and hence, incorporeal creatures cannot physically touch a character in order to deliver a touch spell attack.
Granted, the clarification of this "rule" is hidden in the Ghost template, but that is not unheard of. WotC occassionally has rules hidden within spells or creature descriptions and in a later version, they pull those rules back out where they belong.
ThirdWizard said:
3.5 DMG page 295
"Likewise, they cannot manipulate objects or exert physical force on objects. However, incorporeal creatures have a tangible presence that sometimes seems like a physical attack (such as the touch of a Spectre) against a corporeal creature."
Just because the incorporeal touch attacks (not to be confused with a normal touch attack or a spell touch attack) seems like a physical attack does not mean that it is one.
An incorporeal creature cannot use Power Attack to boost its incorporeal touch attack damage. It could use Power Attack (in the case of a non-manifesting Ghost on the ethereal plane) to increase its melee touch damage on the Ethereal plane.
MerakSpielman
First Post
Hmmm... What if they cast Spectral Hand?
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